Welcome back to the Words of Radiance reread on Tor.com! This week we continue to plow through the interludes, exploring the far reaches of Roshar.
Our second interlude chapter takes us to Iri, a country on the far side of the world from the Shattered Plains, where a simple cobbler is wrestling with some big ideas. We will also meet one of the more sinister figures in Words of Radiance. I hope you’re ready for some hard justice.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any 
other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Read on, and join us in the comments.
Interlude Two: Ym
Point of View: Ym
Setting: Iri
Symbology: Double Eye of the Almighty, Vedel
IN WHICH a cobbler named Ym prepares lasts in the ancient way; spectacles receive appreciation; a naïve spren considers shoes, children; the spren announce that he comes; a small urchin child appears, limping on a wounded foot; Ym trades cobbling for a story; medicine proves insufficient, Stormlight is used instead; Ym claims that all is One; the urchin is skeptical; the shoes fit, the child wears them; Ym may be crazy, is definitely a nice person; he is still here, and has a crescent moon scar on his face; Ym is declared an accomplice, forty years after the fact; stabbing overcomes experience.
Quote of the Week:
“You and I are One.”
“One What?”
“One being,” Ym said. He set aside that shoe and got out another. “Long ago, there was only One. One knew everything, but had experienced nothing. And so, One became many—us, people. The One, who is both male and female, did so to experience all things.”
So much going on here! This feels like a Rosharan take on certain forms of Buddhism, but it also reaches far back into Realmatic Theory. Waaay back before any of the books happened, it’s speculated that there was a complete god called Adonalsium, who fractured into all the different Shards. On Roshar, there are two male shards and a female shard. What’s more, if my memory of the Word of Brandon is correct, Honor and Cultivation arrived on Roshar long before Odium. This philosophy of Oneness could be a remnant of knowledge from long before the Desolations. If so, it’s stunning that it has persisted through so many cataclysms.
Commentary: Weep for the crazy old man, gentle readers, for he is more often doomed than not. Ym may have been a drunken party boy who made a lot of mistakes, but after forty years of not-that, he had settled well into the role of a gentle, philosophical, mildly crazy cobbler. Everything we see in this chapter predisposes us to like Ym. He is a friend to spren and orphan child alike. He has a sensible money management system to avoid robberies. He makes his own lasts. Sure, his philosophy is a little too keen to justify inequality, which honestly rubs me the wrong way, but I still wouldn’t want to see him stabbed all the way to death.
We don’t learn that much about Iri in our first visit. But I guess if you want to learn a city, you probably need to go to more places than a shoe store and an alleyway. Iri is on the other side of the landmass from Alethkar, on the northwestern side of the swirl, and apparently it’s very warm there. I wonder if there’s some northern continent counterbalancing the one we know.
I have a feeling that Crescent-Moon Face might be the bad guy, readers. I mean, yes, I know that Odium is the real bad guy, but… well, this kind of “justice,” murdering someone for something they didn’t realize they were doing forty years ago, is super messed up. We’ll discover more about this guy’s actual motivations later in the book, but to sum up, it’s pretty clear that this mysterious jerk is looking for any justification to kill Surgebinders. It kind of makes me hate him more that he feels he needs those justifications, because he’s bending the system to make everything he does “right.” Justice isn’t the letter of the law, but this guy sees it that way. I want him to be punched so hard.
Sprenspotting: It’s an Ym-spren! Ym’s spren doesn’t have a name, nor do we know what kind of spren it is. Since Ym was a proto-Surgebinder, we know he must have been bonded to the spren, but it seems unlikely that he had spoken any of the Words because of how poorly the spren handles language. I feel like the spren would know how to speak better if they had reached the point of saying the first ideal. Whatever kind of spren this is, it’s associated with light. Since I don’t have any clues to classify Ym’s spren, I’m going to move on to what we do know about.
Ars Arcanum: Ym has healing magic, the power of Regrowth. That limits him to the two orders of Knights Radiant with access to the Progression Surge, the Edgedancers and the Truthwatchers. The fact that Ym’s spren glows like twisting light suggests the surge of Illumination, as does the fact that it repeatedly predicts the future. The Truthwatchers had access to Progression and Illumination, and could predict the future to a limited extent. For now I’ll say that I suspect Ym’s a Truthwatcher, but there’s a counter-argument that can be made in a later section.
We also know a little bit more about how long Ym has been Surgebinding. He says that he’s only used Regrowth a few times in his life, and he still doesn’t seem to realize that his spren is always going to be around. He hasn’t reached the level of constant companionship with his spren that Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah, or Lift have. He hasn’t even found out its name. However, he’s fully worked out that he needs to inhale stormlight to use his powers. He was at a pretty interesting place, so it’s unfortunate that he got stabbed as all get out.
Heraldic Symbolism: This week’s Herald is Vedel, the Herald of Order, whose attributes are Loving and Healing. The simple explanation for why she’s on this section is that, well, Ym is healing a kid. However, her presence problematizes my conclusion that Ym is a Truthwatcher. Vedel oversaw the Edgedancers, the other Order with access to Progression. Why can’t things be simple? As for the other symbol presented to us: The Double Eye always gets used for the interlude chapters, Szeth and Eshonai excluded, but I’ve never bothered to wonder why it’s full of swords. Why is it full of swords?
That’s it for this week. Next week Alice will follow Rysn on her ongoing quest for Perfect Mercantilism.
Carl Engle-Laird is an editorial assistant at Tor.com, where he acquires and edits original fiction. You can follow him on Twitter here.
I loved this Interlude, but was a little confused with how to pronounce Ym in my mind as I read.
Awesome,thanks!
How likely is it that Ym’s Spren went on to Renarin after Ym’s death?
The swords might be Honorblades. The artist just couldn’t fit in 10 swords.
Thanks, Carl. I assumed that Ym is a truthwatcher, since he has the surge of Progression, and doesn’t appear to be another edgedancer (first, because his spren doesn’t look like Wyndle, and second, because Wyndle said that he was chosen by the council to bond Lift, implying that his was the test case and there are no other edgedancers at this point).
Ym is pretty awesome. Darkness sucks. Though, to be fair, we don’t know much about his motivation other than his desire to prevent a desolation by eradicating surgebinders. The SA has so many characters who are operating under their own worldviews, where their actions seems right for the “greater good”= Taravangian, Amaram, Gavilar, Darkness, etc… Not sure yet about the Ghostbloods, but possibly them, too.
I agree that Ym’s religious philosphy seems to echo Buddhist beliefs. One of the things that really got me into BWS was his religious slant in the Mistborn trilogy, with its influence from Eastern religions, especially Taoism, which fascinated me and made me wholeheartedly support him taking over the Wheel of Time series. I’m not sure how much of what Ym says reflects knowledge of Adonalsium, which seems to be beyond the knowledge or memory of any mortals in the Cosmere who aren’t thousands of years old, or at least worldhoppers, but who knows? We still don’t know much about the origins of Vorinism, or how much of what was originally known before the recreance might reflect the truth about Shards and maybe even Adonalsium.
I don’t know if anyone mentioned this but last week’s interlude Narak; Narak in Hindu mythology is a word for hell.
I did a little research and found that narak was an actual place which was immortalised as hell. Narak was a place where there was little food available as it was all desert and dense forest so the people there all they could eat was meat. Now, in those times eating meat was frowned upon. Only warriors were exempt from this. So the people in narak, as they ate meat, were considered demon-like. Apart from that, the people of narak were technologically, spiritually backward and prone to violence so they were considered demons and narak a hell.
Love this interlude, maybe even more than Lift’s. But I really hated to see a really nice, older gentlemen, proto-Radiant get murdered by a deranged Nale/Nalan. :-(
Carl
Neither thinks or things (which is what I expect you meant) are ever simple in the Stormlight Archive. :-)
Thanks to the Lego Movie (which, incidentally, is brilliant, and you should all watch it if you haven’t yet), anytime the name Darkness comes up, I can’t help but think of Lego-Batman’s song: “Darkness! No parents! … Other things that are dark!”
I agree with MDNY @@@@@ 5 in regards to Ym’s Radiant order. We don’t have a name or type for his spren, but said spren is described quite differently than Wyndle is, and if there’s only one type of bonding spren per order (is that actually cannon, or is that just common speculation?), then it likely isn’t the same. We’ll likely get more information as we learn more about Renarin (or, more to the point, Glys) in future books.
By the way, everyone knows that the ebook of Way of Kings is free on iTunes right now, right?
Now to the re-read.
The commonly accepted theory is that Ym is a Truthwatcher, like Renarin. He has regrowth, and the only two orders with that are Edgedancers and Truthwatchers. His love of stories suggests the later.
Moon-Scar Face is certainly one of the badguys. Taravangian is probably one of the more significant ones. I hope we get a Taravangian book one day, though it we do I’m certain it’ll be in the second cycle, as don’t we know the focus for the next three by Word of Brandon? If I recall, Szeth, Eshonai, then Dalinar?
jeremyguebert @8
I’ve also wondered if there could be more than one type of bonding spren per order. So far, of course, we’ve only seen one per. I don’t believe anything has been confirmed one way or the other. It will be enlightening to explore Renarin’s situation further.
@8 grumble mumble typo jumble FIXED
Thanks Carl,
Ym is an interesting character. He definitely seems cosmere aware; he even uses the term “cosmere.” His religious view of “The One” does seem to loosely be related to Adonalsium being one supreme being before splitting into 16 Shards (and placing Investiture of itself on other planet(s)).
Re: continents – To my understanding, there is only one large land mass on Roshar, located in the southern hemisphere. I’ll try to locate the Word of Brandon…
“Crescent Moon Face” has (as we know) already shown up in the prologue of Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, and it was a nice, slow reveal of our deranged Herald of Justice. I do like Nin’s appearance in the Lift Interlude a bit more; only 40+ chapters and 7 more Interludes to go! :-)
As for “THE bad guy,” I don’t know if we’ve really discovered who the bad guy is for either the 10 book series, or the 5 book first arc. At the end of WoK, a strong case could have been made for Taravangian; At the end of WoR, a strong case could be made for Taravangian, Nalan/Nin, Mraize, etc. I’m sure at the end of book 3, expectations will be set on their head once again.
Ym’s KR Order: I know that common opinion is that both Ym and Renarin are Truthwatchers and that Ym’s spren must be the same spren as Renarin’s Glys. I remain somewhat skeptical due to the fact that Brandon never showed us Glys, never had Renarin do any type of Surgebinding whatsoever and only showed us Renarin viewing/predicting the future, not Renarin’s spren. Methinks there is more to this and I don’t want to place Renarin and/or Ym in the Truthwatches without a little bit more info.
Here is the WoB about the continent of Roshar:
INTERVIEW: Sep, 2012
(click on link and scroll down to Q63)
The first time I read this interlude, I thought the same as you Carl, but when I reread it, it seemd more of what happened on Roshar. Perhaps the Iriali saw Honor (male), and Cultivation (female), as One.
This time through though, I realized that what has happened on Roshar seems to be a microcosm of the entire Cosmere. Adonalsium was split into different shards of intents which have various powers, then something similar happened with Honor. I also assumed this had happened to Cultivation until the scene with Wit, Kaladin, Adolin, and Shallan.
KiManiak @14 Renarin says at the end of WoR that he is a Truthwatcher. As for Ym, I can see him being a Truthwatcher or an Edgedancer.
All my points for thinking he is a Truthwatcher have been made, so here is why I think he could be an Edgedancer:
Not only did he heal the urchins and give them shoes, he also asked them for their stories. He certainly seemed to be remembering those who had been forgotten.
Yes, his spren doesn’t look the same as Wyndle, but it doesn’t seem like a stretch for this type of spren to appear differently to someone else. Lift seemed to have a stronger connection to Shademar, so she may have seen Spren more in their Shadesmar form than their Physical Realm form.
If Ym’s One, is a reflection of knowledge about Adonalsium lasting over eons – that’s really impressive. But it was also the thought I had when re-reading this chapter.
On the other hand, it is not an unknown religious / philosophical thought process, so having it on this planet in a faraway land is not beyond the imagination either.
Darkness: Tracking someone down after 40 years for being an accessory to murder… No concept of a statue of limitations, uh? Nor karma balance. Since in a court of our laws, I think 30 odd years of trying to make up for a mistake of the past would not get the guy a capital punishment. He didn’t even stab anyone. He took a bottle of wine to a person thinking it was a message. Not a poison.
Yep, Darkness is using very thin excuses as his justification. And it’s not going to stop the Desolation, just make things worse in the long run. So, will he punish himself for his deeds?
@3: I do not think Ym’s spren is Renarin.
First, I think Renarin already has his spren. Thus why he was much more relaxed after bonding the sword. No one screaming in his head all the time.
Second, I believe the death of your proto-bonded would set the spren back in development even more. Maybe even send them back to Shadesmar.
Third, I feel it is a mistake to anticipate only one spren of each type of Radiant order. I know WoB is that we have meet a representative (or soon to be) of each order. But (correct me) I do not think he has said we have only met one spren of each order.
Thus for Renarin and Ym to be of the same order is possible, even without sharing the same spren.
I wouldn’t disparage Ym by referring to him as ‘crazy’ or ‘mildly crazy’. While he accepts the inequalities in his society, he does his best to ameliorate the lot of abandoned boys in his capacity as cobbler. He is not wealthy, he can only give of his own work (there are many such boys, and he could not take them all into his shop as paid assistants). He is a kindly, goodhearted man who puts his unique healing abilities to use – albeit, being careful to disguise that ability. His religious philosophy is also attractive even if somewhat fatalistic. His murderer, Nalan (Darkness) is a repulsive and evil-minded character, even if he claims to only carry out justice (in the Lift interlude, he clearly aims at eliminating potential Radiants).
Witsquared@17 – I know that Renarin said he was a Truthwatcher. I’m just encouraging the experienced reader to question “certainties” based solely upon the word of a character who’s head we have yet to be inside. Renarin also stated “We’re dead…” to Shallan when in the Oathgate. Not everything Renarin has said has been accurate.
Brandon is a fantastic storyteller and incredibly gifted at presenting information that implies/suggests, but ultimately turns out to be quite misleading. I’d like to see/hear Glys and see Renarin do some type of surgebind related activity (we haven’t even seen him breathe in Stormlight; and no, I don’t count no longer needing glasses as sufficient proof) before I accept as given that Renarin is who/what he says he is.
As for Ym, until we have proof that all Edgedancer spren look alike, I’m not going to 100% accept Ym as a nascent Truthwatcher (before his death).
KiManiac @14
Yeah, Ym’s mention of cosmere. I didn’t comment about that earlier b/c I’m at work (boo, hiss) and don’t have my notes with me. I’m pretty sure that’s the first time an in-world character has used the word, right?
ETA
Braid_Tug @18
There’s no Statute of Limitations for murder, at least in the good old US of A. That said, we don’t know how it works in Iri or on Roshar in general. IMHO, Ym should be found not guilty b/c he was only an unwitting accessory and has done a crap-ton of community service since the deed. Darkness/Nale obviously doesn’t agree. Perhaps more because he’s into offing proto-Radiants than for the murder rap itself.
Ym is another example of a KR percieving that something should be a certain way, when in reality in does not need to be so. He delights in the invention of spectacles, though he could easily heal his eyes. I love that aspect of the magic system.
It’s pretty safe to assume Ym was a Truthwatcher. The spren is not the same as Wyndle and at the end she urges Ym to use light, which I believe to mean make an illusion as Shallan does. Also he could not have spoken the words to perform regrowth with how little sentience the spren has and the fact that she doesn’t stay with Ym at all times. Lift had to speak the words. So perhaps the Truthwatcher order does not need to.
anybody else think about Kvothe from King Killer when they read the part with the urchin?
@20 to be fair, the Stormfather expects them all to die in the ending battle too so we can’t really blame Renarin for making an incorrect prediction of the future :)
(on a side note how does Renarin or other Truthwatchers predicting the future fit in with the Vorin beliefs about that subject? That’d be a good topic to discuss, but perhaps this is not the time and place.)
“He hasn’t even found out its name.” Do we find out the spren’s name or do we give the spren a name? Or is it different for different spren? I don’t think “Pattern” is Pattern’s name obviously but he seems content to answer to it.
@18/21 It would appear that Nalan/Darkness abides by the laws of the current country he is in at the time (which is another interesting subject all by itself). So some places might have a statue of limitations and others not. Some countries in Roshar might not even have the death penalty for any of their crimes while others, like the one Lift is in, might execute someone for only being a thief. In any case it is pretty clear that Nalan is willing to accept some pretty thin justification for what he is doing.
And I think Ym is a Truthwatcher from the way he acts. I think trying to predict his order based off of his spren is a less-effective method of determining it.
It really makes me sad that we are not going to see any more of Ym.
Also, I would not really call him Cosmere-aware. But his culture has absorbed a few ideas from somone who was Cosmere-aware. It is difficult to tell how much is accurate, and how much is simply his religion’s spin on it.
Also, confession time: We were expecting a High Storm in Phoenix, Arizona, from Hurricane Odile, but the truth is, I was just a little disappointed when it almost completely missed us. I really felt let down.
I think Ym is probably a truthwatcher. It seems like Surgebinders are more comfortable with one (the “first” of the two if the bottom wraps around to the top in the ars arcanum) of the surges. Lift is more comfortable with Abrasion and less comfortable with Regrowth. Ym seems comfortable with Regrowth, and perhaps is less comfortable with Lightweaving.
@22 Did Ym actuall say he could heal his eyes?
Kaladin seems challenged by healing his scars…
Perhaps the shattering of Adonalsium is the Big Bang for the cosmere?
RE: #5. I think your point about how there are so many different villians doing evil things “for the greater good” is a big part of the “journey before destination” theme. Tav, Darkness, Amaram, all put the destination before the journey.
@26 He didn’t specifically say that he could but why would he not think himself capable if he heals others? Unless he doesn’t think of it as his power but the spren’s power. Kaladin could heal subconsiously, but Shallan did have a hard time of it for the first few days after she washed ashore. Regardless, if I’m a wise old man that can heal others (or ask a spren to heal others), I’m going to try it on myself. Especially if it helps my work.
I think that when it is all written and done in the fist 5 books, Taravangian will not be a bad guy. I think he will be viewed by most of the main protagonists as “more of a good guy” than Amaram. I have no textual evidence to offer as support. It is just my belief.
I guess I am in the minority because I did not care that Ym died. For whatever reason, I was not invested in him. On the other hand, I was invested in Lift. Both were only in one Interlude. Go figure.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
Taravangian, Amaram, Szeth, Darkness etc. are creepy and misguided, and maybe evil, but the only character I would label as purely and entirely Evil is Sadeas (perhaps Ialai, except we haven’t ever got in her head yet). Even in his own mind, his only goal and desire is domination, and he is willing to do Anything to obtain it. At least the others have some “good goal” excuse that they use to convince themselves what they are doing is right, even if it is wrong.
MikeyRocks @23
Most definitely.
JoeH42 @24
Yep. Nale/Darkness did follow the laws of Azir because he didn’t kill Lift after Gawx was made Prime Aqasix and pardoned her. His justification for almost dispatching her:
Crazypants Nale is certainly out to kill proto-KRs whenever possible. I wonder what’s going to go down when he runs into the Kholin Krowd & Kal™.
Re: Ym=Truthwatcher
I’d bet real money on it (not saying how much, though). Ym clearly had access to the Progression surge, and his spren’s appearence and comments strongly suggest Illumination also, not so much Abrasion.
Oy. It’s been a long day. Finally, finally, able to comment.
Is Ym really dead? There’s at least a hint in WoB (in the Jasnah chapter that may or may not appear in SA3, so it’s not canon) that it’s impossible to kill someone who is holding enough Stormlight except by a crushing blow to the head. That gives me a tiny shred of hope for Ym. OTOH, I don’t honestly think he was holding any Stormlight; I think that when his spren whispered, “No. Light!” it was telling him he needed to draw it in – and he didn’t do it in time.
I has a sad. I liked Ym. I do not like this Darkness fellow. I do not like him, Sam I Am.
On the more scholarly side: I’ve pretty much convinced myself that Ym was a proto-Edgedancer. Here’s the reasoning, such as it is. (Some of it is just gut feeling.)
The first description of Ym’s spren refers to “specks of light, like those from a piece of crystal suspended in a sunbeam.” Then there’s this paragraph:
Next, it’s “like a reflection off a mirror—translucent, really just a shimmer of light.” Then, “It stopped, and light grew upward from it in the shape of tiny sprouts.” “… the sparkling light spren peeked out from underneath…” Finally, as he flees Darkness and has to stop for breath,
This all reminds me irresistibly of Wyndle and his manifestation.
I won’t quote them all, but Wyndle’s appearances inevitably take the form of growing vines, with bits of clear crystal. These descriptions are from Lift, who is partly in the Cognitive Realm according to Wyndle, which is why she can see and touch him as she can. And at the end, as Darkness prepares to kill her,
It seems to me that the visible behavior of Ym’s spren is what someone would see of Wyndle’s behavior, if that someone were not in the Cognitive Realm, but was forming a bond with the spren. Especially that last bit in bold.
Adding to that:
Lift: “Someone has to care. Too few people care these days.”
Isn’t that exactly what Ym does?
And Ym, even more than Lift, evinces Vedel’s characteristic of healing. Vedel was the one who trained the surgeons in preparation for a Desolation; it seems probable that her Edgedancers had a strong bent toward healing as well. While we know the Truthwatchers have access to Progression, there’s nothing else in the little we know about them (or their Herald) to indicate that healing was of primary importance to them.
And FWIW, I didn’t read the spren’s “He comes” and “He’s still here” etc. as predictions of the future (Truthwatcher-y evidence), so much as an awareness of the presence of Darkness – who, incidentally, has been watching Ym enough to be noticed already. Given the lack of information from Renarin about his spren or how his Surges are used by Truthwatchers, it’s not conclusive, so your mileage may vary. But… there it is.
I believe Ym was becoming an Edgedancer.
@wetlander
Ym should be dead. While it is difficult to kill Surgebinders, Darkness knows that and he is the type to make sure of such things. Though having him survive would kind of fit into the general pattern of WoR ;-)
The spren is not the same as Wyndle and at the end she urges Ym to use light, which I believe to mean make an illusion as Shallan does.
I thought that simply meant that he should use Stormlight.
I don’t think “Pattern” is Pattern’s name obviously but he seems content to answer to it.
Pattern says that his name is a number, but Shallan can call him Pattern.
@22: Maybe it’s like Healing in the WOT, you cannot Heal yourself. They can use Stormlight to subconsciously heal their own wounds, but not consciously.
Or Ym was getting old, and in his mind failing eyesight was part of getting older. So there was a block on the eyes healing. Then again, there are some types of eye damage that just cannot be healed.
@23: Not the first time I read it. But maybe now.
@32: Sadly I think Ym is dead. I do not think he had any Stormlight in him or on him. Having used it up to heal the child’s foot.
IMO his purpose was to introduce the reader to another city, the One philosophy, and Darkness. So that when Darnkness showed up in Lift’s chapter, we knew right away to be worried.
Jasnah was hit by ordinary assassins with normal weapons. Ym was not not.
Ym was killed by a Shardblade, not a mundane weapon. Szeth was holding a massive amount of Stormlight and it wasn’t enough to save him from Kaladin’s Blade. Granted, Szeth was a Surgebinder via his Honorblade and not a spren bond, but I’m assuming it wouldn’t make a difference in this case.
UnNalan may have stabbed Ym in the eye afterwards, to make completely sure, or cut off his head. I mean, he, of all people, knows how resilient the Surgebinders are.
I am also not sure about the time-line of warning glyphs appearing on walls of Kholin quarters and Ym’s death. I mean, we already had one “glyph” episode, so bar some shenangians Renarin should have already had Glys before Ym died, no? The Truthwatcher spren being one of those, who have difficulty talking would also explain why Glys couldn’t reassure Renarin earlier.
And yes, I think that Ym was another nascent Truthwatcher – IMHO him insisting on people telling him some truths about themselves in exchange for shoes fits very neatly with this Order. Also, him being solitary and odd. And again, him not having to speak any ideals before being able to consciously inhale and use Stormlight would fit very well with Renarin’s situation and his confusion.
I dare say that if Renarin had to say the First deal, he wouldn’t have been so terrified of his foresifght and, having been subjected to multiple readings of The Way of Kings, knowing that Radiants were supposed to appear, and being a relatively smart young man, he would have been able to figure things out.
Something else that I found extremely interesting, and which hasn’t been commented on so far, IIRC, is “the long Trail” and Iriali conviction that Roshar is the 4th (?) world that they have lived on. It seems to me, that unlike Scadrial, where humans were apparently re-created ex-nihilo by the Shards, on Roschar humans are immigrants, who might even initially have been of Yolen stock. Or maybe just Iriali? And yes the “One” thing seems to be very similar to shattering of Adonalsium, IMHO.
Anway, I wonder where the Aimians fit into the world-building. Listeners are clearly indigenous to Roschar, humans are later immigrants, but what are they?
Ways @@@@@ 21- Ym is not the first character to mention the word Cosmere but he is, in my opinion, the first Rosharian to use it in any way the comes close to the mark. In WoK it’s used by wit in conversation with Dalinar and in his epigraph letter. Jasnah and Kabsal both use it in a way that just replaces the way we say universe. Jasnah is saying truths about teenagers and Kabsal is having a theological discussion on the balance of good and evil in Vorin religion.
I really wanted to look in to this yesterday but iOS 8 killed the iBooks search on my iPad. I had to find an old device still on iOS 7 to serch my books :(
Isilel @@@@@ 37 That Long Trail part is interesting. Here is the quote:
Were the Iriali a cosmere aware group of travelers that have put a mystical rationalization on things after much oral passing down? How many shard worlds are there supposed to be? Maybe there was an early group of people that wanted to experiance all the different shards?
Hmm, I guess there is supposed to be 10 shard worlds so maybe this is just happenstance.
The idea of God being not completely true, is consistent with the Cosmere though.
Btw, Carl, this isn’t our first trip to Iri. Axies the collector was there in WoK.
Wetlandernw @32
You’ve built an excellent case for Ym being a proto-Edgedancer, based on the minimal evidence we have at hand. I especially like the part about Lift seeing Wyndle differently than the way Ym sees his spren because Lift is partly in the Cognitive Realm. I also agree that Ym’s spren was not predicting the future with statements like “He comes”.
However, I took the several light-show effects displayed by Ym’s spren to indicate the Illumination surge. Isilel @37 also makes some good arguments in favor of Ym being a Truthwatcher. Hopefully, we will learn enough about Renarin’s proto-Radiancy and his spren in SA Book 3 to answer the questions about Ym. I may end up losing the limited amount of real money I suggested I’d bet on Ym heading for Truthwatcherness. So be it.
I’m thinking we are WOB-certain Darkness=Nale (same dark complexion and crescent-shaped scar). Is that not correct?
Bellaberry @38
Thanks for the update. I’ll give Wit a pass on use of the word Cosmere–special case, but I’d forgotten about Jasnah and Kabsal using it to replace universe, much as Ym did.
Ways@40 – I don’t think we need WoB certainty of Nale=Darkness; Words of Radiance Chapter 88 all but confirms this:
And later:
Or are you speculating that the individual who claims the name Nin/Nalan in Chapter 88 may not be the same man we see in the Ym and Lift interludes? Similar as to whether/not the man calling him Talenel is actually the real Talenel?
If that’s the case, that might be interesting.
Ways @40 – As far as I know, Darkness=Nale and there’s been no WoB-hedging about his identity, as there has been with Taln. I do think we can accept it as truth, though I’ve been wrong before.
About Ym… I hesitate to base asssumptions about an entire Order on one character’s personality – thinking that Ym is “solitary and odd” and that that equates to Renarin’s personality and therefore they must be of the same order… Ummmm, no. I don’t find that convincing. There’s nothing in Renarin’s behavior that would indicate a particular interest in other people’s truths, either. The only similarity I can honestly point to is that Ym’s spren tends to hide when other people come around, and there’s no indication that anyone but Renarin has seen his spren. That’s mighty thin evidence, though. Except for Pattern, most of the spren seem to be invisible unless the spren wishes to be seen.
As far as I can see, the only thing to really connect Ym with Truthwatchers is the single statement, “As One, we knew truth, but as many, we need ignorance.” Which isn’t even related, really. His emphasis is on hearing people’s stories and experiences – which looks to me like the interest of someone who simply cares for people. “I will remember those who have been forgotten.”
IMO, Ym’s interaction with this urchin is much more like Lift’s interaction with Gawx than Renarin’s with anybody, so if you want to base generalizations on a single character, that makes more sense to me. (ymmv, of course!) It’s a little frustrating that we haven’t seen Renarin do anything with his Surges yet, other than the countdown, so we don’t have much to work with. That might be another reason I lean more toward Edgedancer; at least we’ve observed both Lift and Ym performing healing on someone.
I didn’t personally see anything in this chapter as reflective of the Illumination Surge, but that doesn’t prove anything. We know nothing of how Truthwatchers use Illumination except that its combination with Progression gives them insight into the future. Do they use Illusion like Lightweavers do? Dunno.
Wetlander @32:
I also have a sneaky suspicion that Ym may be dead and yet not, but for a very different reason from yours. My thinking is that perhaps Nalan is collecting (not killing) proto-radiants for some purpose of his own. After all, we know from his conscription of Szeth that he has a kind of fabrial that can revive a fully dead person, if the person is not too long dead.
So, he kills someone like Ym to allow him to erase Ym’s sense of self, but he is obviously on hand to perform his awakening ritual a few minutes later, and presto, he has a new conscript to join his secret army of
channelersradiants-in-training. This idea may be far-fetched, and Ym may indeed be dead, but for now I will cling to the notion that Nalan may be going to all this trouble to find new radiants-to-be, not to just kill them dead, but to train them for some unknown purpose.Okaaayy…. that’s really disturbing.
::shudder::
@43 Alisonwonderland
That possibility had occurred to me, too…
Somehow it had never crossed my mind, but I can certainly acknowledge the possibility. Ewww. It’s just so… creepy. Kind of like he is.
::shudder:: again.
It all really depends on why Radiants were a danger to restarting a Desolation. I thought at first, their mere existence was a danger, so the Heralds, or at least Nalan, wanted them dead. But if he has a regiment of Knights (less) Radiant on hand, then that can’t be the entire answer.
This is, at least, a very dark possibility.
Alison@43 – That’s a rather… freaky possibility that I had never considered until you mentioned it. Interesting.
The Ym Interlude concludes with such… finality (“The man shoved the Shardblade through Ym’s chest. Experience ended.”) that I’m inclined to lean towards Darkeness/Nale/Nin just hunting down the proto-radiants to kill them.
Even when hunting Lift, it seems Nale is actively trying to seek and destroy all proto-radiants:
It seems like Nin/Nale/Darkness is out to kill all proto-radiants. But I’m by no means sold on that being the only possibility.
Cool (if disturbing) theory.
I wouldn’t attribute any sane motive to Nalan’s obsession with ferreting out and killing spren-bonded individuals. His ostensible rationale is given in the Lift interlude.
“Others may be detestable, but they do not dabble in arts that could return Desolation to this world.” His (Nalan’s) words were so cold. “What you are must be stopped.” The virtue of caring for others exhibited by Ym and Lift is of no consequence when it comes to carrying out his program of killing such individuals. Nor is the prevention of the foretold Desolation really that consquential for Nalan. He resurrects Szeth, supplies him with the ‘awakened’ sword, Nightblood, and directs him to seek vengeance for his miserable life as a slave and killer from the Shin elders – without mentioning the advent of the Everstorm and its transforming powers. The Desolation is here, but he is still concerned with killing off potential Radiants and Surgebinders (the Shin elders have access to the remaining honorblades which would give them powers akin to what Szeth had). The Skybreaker order that he wishes to found are not Radiants. Helaran was said to be one, yet he had no compunction of killing any opponent who got in his way. Szeth has killed many who were in the way if it were consistent with the orders that he followed. I conclude that the new Skybreakers will be a broken would-be replication of the old Radiant order just as Nalan is a broken version of his Herald self. The Heralds who abandoned the Oathpact have, apparently, all been transformed into parodies of their former selves. Shalash, the Herald of beauty is now engaged in destroying works of art. Jezrien, the regal Herald acts now like a drunken, drooling fool. Even Taln, who alone suffered the consequences of the Oathpact, has only moments of lucidity and lightning action. In any case, I can’t believe that Nalan aims at creating a collection of ‘awakened’ Skybreakers by killing and resurrecting them (Ym is an old man, and the papers making it ‘legal’ to resurrect a sentenced ‘criminal don’t exist).
Little off topic, but I know where to go to make that all important “I’m not alone” connection. Started Warbreaker and already love Denth and Tonk Fah. They remind me of characters that would be in the Black Company of Khatovar (as if there were any other Black Company ;)
Haven’t posted much lately but I am a consistent lurker. Darkness the General of a reanimated KR army is a scary and interesting theory.
@43: Wow… scary theory. I don’t want it to be true.
In part because of it seems Nalan’s results would be a little too similar to the forced Turning of the WoT world.
Another part, is I fear it would lessen the meaning death in these books. Currently Szeth is special, because he is the only one we know about that has been saved from death. Brandon promised at least one character would “return from the dead, and it would not be an in-world cheat.” So, Szeth seems to be that character. If you have a whole army of Turned proto-Radiants, that’s a whole other kettle of fish.
But fingers crossed we will know more about Nalan’s plans in 2016 with book 3.
Another small reason to consider that Ym might have been an Edgedancer instead of a Truthwatcher actually comes from Wyndle.
Wyndle complains that he wanted to choose a nice old lady who shared his love of gardening but the counsel of spren he answers to wanted him to bond with Lift.
There is an implication in this that the spren of Edgedancers (What are they called-Growthspren? Caringspren?) might have historically chosen older people for the older of Edgedancers. It was breaking with a pattern for them to choose Lift because she’s so young. We already know that spren don’t care about gender when choosing their Radiants, so why would they care about age?
It seems that Cultivation doesn’t forbid her spren from going out and
finding Radiants the way that the Stormfather has, so why would they
only send out one spren? Why wouldn’t they increase their chances of by sending out a couple spren? It makes sense for this spren counsel that Wyndle’s apart to send out more than one spren. Syl is the only
honorspren but I don’t think we can say that the other orders of spren
only sent out one of their kind.
Side thought: Can you just imagine the order of Edgedancer in the past if this is true? Basically an entire group of people who look like the kindest grandmas and grandpas around who go running around like Lift. Just sliding around, being awesome, and healing those silly Windrunners. This amuses me like nothing else.
(“Grandma no you’ll break your hip!”
“Oh hush you, I’m and Edgedancer! Stormlight for the win!”)
With all this talk of Edgedancers and Truthwaters, I have one wild speculation/guess: Kaladin will not defeat Szeth. Renarin will.
I strongly suspect that Nightblood might actually outclass Kaladin as he is, without plate, or perhaps even with plate. But Szeth’s greatest potential weakness (strength?) is hearing truth. This could also be Nightblood’s weakness. What would Nightblood do, if it realized the one who weilded it was Evil? Szeth is not so much evil per se, as he is on a very bad path. The right words from Renarin could upset even the most desperate fight, because you can’t hit words.
It will probably turn out completely different, but Renarin could really shine here, potentially.
If Ym is, indeed, an Edgedancer and not a Truthwatcher, could it imply that Nalan is specifically against Edgedancers and not against proto-radiants of other orders? We’ve seen him attempt to kill Lift (definite Edgedancer) and Ym (possible Edgedancer), yet he has known about Jasnah Kholin for years, and made no move against her. Neither has he moved against Shallan, or more recently, Kaladin.
Actually, the more I think about this, the more attractive that theory sounds.
From the Epigraphs, I have a suspicion that a radiant went bad in the past and the attempt to discipline this radiant led to the recreance. Perhaps that radiant, if my supposition is right, may have been an Edgedancer, thus Nalan’s determination to wipe out the order.
Alisonwonderland @54. Now that would be a very interesting twist. I think that would be a better storyline than Nalan killing proto-Radiants and then bringing them back from the dead (as he did with Szeth).
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
Alison@54 – re: Nalan just hunting Edgedancers – I’m less inclined to buy this theory, actually. When hunting Lift, Nalan isn’t sure that she’s an Edgedancer until he sees her use Regrowth on Gawx. Up until that time, Nalan and his henchman are still actively pursuing Lift anyway.
After Lift brings Gawx back, Nalan becomes aware of Lift’s KR Order:
It’s clear Nalan didn’t know (nor really care) whether Lift was an Edgedancer or Releaser/Dustbringer. When Lift asks why Nalan hunts her, Nalan states the words that both my post@48 and STBLST@49 already quoted:
Although an argument could be made that Darkness hunts down anyone who exhibits the Progression or Abrasion Surge and only kills them after he is sure that they are not a Releaser or Truthwatcher, I think that what we saw of Ym’s interlude would significantly challenge the validity of that argument.
With the current evidence I’m more inclined to buy (though I am still verrrry skeptical) the freakily disturbing theory that Darkness kills and brings back proto-Radiants, then I am to buy that Darkness is only hunting down all Edgedancers and no other KR Orders.
Hmmm. The last few comments immediately before or just after a new post are often the most thought-provoking.
Nale’s “detestable” quote is ambiguous with respect to whether he is hunting all orders or only Edgedancers. However, I think KiManiak @56 makes a good case for the all orders option. I definitely want to read about the confrontation between Nale and the Kholin Krowd & Kal™.
When it comes to the “is Ym’s spren actually Glys?” question, that simply doesn’t seem likely to me, simply because the Ym-spren is apparently female and Glys is apparently male:
“I thought it was me,” Renarin whispered. “My mind. But Glys, he says . . .” Renarin blinked. “Truthwatcher.”
Syl, at least, is very definite about spren having genders, so I doubt the Ym-spren’s Glys, but that could be just my assumption.
Old lurker, new poster here.
This theory with the killing and bringing back radiants reminds me of the Reanimation of dead shinobi in Naruto Shippuden.
Fighting a once-dead friend or loved one that is now being controlled is such a head trip. Even worse would be if the Reanimated Radiants are aware and keep their personalities but cannot control their actions….Yikes
Hello? *tap tap tap* Anybody still here?
Well, here goes…
So, when I had to drop out of the reread for awhile (basically from chapter 6 – 20), this interlude is definitely the one section I was most upset to miss discussing with you all. I found it really intriguing!
Three things I want to mention, beginning with the least important:
1. Like Wetlander, I think Ym was a proto-Edgedancer, for pretty much the reasons she laid out. I read this interlude *before* I read Lift; I avoided reading any preview material because I wanted to read it where it was situated in the book. Having read this first, I was immediately put in mind of Ym’s spren when we met Wyndle – the manifestations aren’t identical, but the spren seeming to sprout whenever it stops moving caught my eye.
I hadn’t thought about the similarities between his behavior and Edgedancer ethics (remember the forgotten, etc.) but it’s an excellent point. His care for ‘urchins’ is definitely caring for the forgotten and overlooked. And is a big part of why I like him so much.
2. His reference to the Shattering of Adolnasium was startling and cool – and suggests, if there’s any grain of truth to it, that Adolnasium may have shattered *voluntarily* which I find fascinating. I asked AhoyMatey to ask Brandon about it at a signing back in March. Brandon told him that it was a good question, the “right kind” of question, and…we’ll have to read more to find out! Argh.
3. Finally, as Isilel mentions, I was also fascinated by talk of the Iriali Long Trail, that this was their fourth world, and that they’d live on three more before the end and the healing of Adolnasium. Whoa. So the Iriali as a people seem to be Worldhoppers.
Isilel said this:
“It seems to me, that unlike Scadrial, where humans were apparently re-created ex-nihilo by the Shards, on Roschar humans are immigrants, who might even initially have been of Yolen stock. Or maybe just Iriali?”
I think the latter. Honor at least claimed to be the father of humankind – in Dalinar’s visions, not just in Vorin theology. And we have word of Brandon that humans have been created independently on multiple worlds in the Cosmere, by multiple Shards. So it seems to me that on Roshar we have a mix: some humans, like the Iriali, worldhopped here from elsewhere (and may well be from Yolen originally). Others may have been created here by Honor (with or without Cultivation’s participation). Does that make them technically the same species or not? (It might explain quirky Rosharan eye and hair genetics as a quirk of a particular Shard.) (But then, did I read somewhere that Horneater and Herdazian teeth indicate interbreeding with Listeners?!?)
Which brings me back to my many questions about Rosharan ecology. Parshendi seem likely to be “natives” of Roshar – their changes of form, including mateform, require them to bond with spren. It seems impossible that they could originate from elsewhere when they can’t even reproduce without assistance from spren.
But…did they evolve naturally, or where they shaped (genetically engineered?) by one or more Shards? Are they of Odium, considering that (we think) Odium-spren are their “Gods” and responsible for their ‘forms of power’? Or…are they of Honor, considering that the natural way for them to change form is in a highstorm, and that highstorms are associated with the Stormfather, who is decidedly “of Honor”?
What about highstorms – natural or artificial/magical? They have an Origin, they’re the source of stormlight, they seem unnatural. But all the native plants and animals are completely adapted to and dependent on the highstorms, which argues that they’re natural…
So many questions!
I recall hearing that Horneaters had Parshendi blood, but I don’t recall anything about Herdazians.
Adolnasium is an interesting topic. The letter that Wit sends to a shard/dragon in Way of Kings, that is answered in Words of Radiance suggests it is part of a larger plan.
This also ties in with my idea that Hoid will ultimately fail.
Also, I would really like to know a few mundane details about the Highstorms. I had considered making a stormwardens manual.
Tor.com WOK reread interview , was that Horneaters had back molars that were different from standard humans, teeth that would break claws. He then stated that “To a lesser extent, the Herdazians have the same thing going for them.”
In another interview, he said “Horneaters are human/Parshendi hybrids. (There are several Roshar races that have Parshendi blood in them.)”
So I’m conflating things, assuming that there’s some Parshendi genetics influencing the Herdazians as well as the Horneaters. Whether that comes from direct interbreeding, or simply from intermarriage with Horneaters, or something else, we don’t know.
(I’ve only been aware of human/Parshendi hybrids being possible for a couple of weeks, by the way, and find it very strange. Especially since the Parshendi seem to think that spren like humans better than they do Parshendi – which is curious since Parshendi require spren to mate, and like Horneaters, can see spren that regular humans can’t.)
Oh, and re: that bit of the Letter that you boldfaced – *very* interesting, esp. considering the theory, based on Ym’s theology, that Adolnasium *chose* to shatter. Which “worlds you now tread” did the letter writer mean, though? ALL the worlds we’ve seen Hoid on bear Shardic influence – does that suffice to be described as bearing the design/touch of Adolnasium? Or does it have to be only worlds like Roshar, which we know was influenced by Adolsnasium before the Shattering?
“Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain”…what does that mean?