- Greetings, O Fans of the Cosmere! Welcome back to the Oathbringer Reread, wherein Kaladin is depressed but learns cool things anyway, Syl is in disguise, and Shallan draws. She also demonstrates her favorite coping mechanism, much to Kaladin’s envy. Everybody wants to be somebody… else.
A: Before we dive in, I want to extend my huge thanks to Paige for stepping in at the last minute to give me a sanity check and balance the input! Lyndsey has been swamped lately, so last-minute assistance was a great boon.
P: It is always a pleasure, Alice! I love chatting with you about this wonderful story.
A: Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread—if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s reread there is a spoiler for Mistborn: Secret History in the Shadesmar Shenanigans section, plus a minor Warbreaker note in Cosmere Connections; if you haven’t read them, best to give those sections a pass.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin
WHERE: Shadesmar ship (Lyn: This week’s map is my best guess as to their current location.)
WHEN: 1174.2.4.2 (the day after the lighthouse events of Chapter 97)
Having escaped being captured by a Fused by hopping a Reacher ship, Kaladin observes a variety of phenomena: Syl looks different, the captain provides water via a condenser fabrial, many spren are interesting, and Shallan is drawing and making jokes.
Beginnings
Title: Reachers
Syl said they were lightspren, but the common name was Reachers.
A: Oh, the things we’ll learn now!
P: Lots of new info, still more questions!
Heralds: Kalak (Willshapers, Maker, Resolute/Builder) and Shalash (Lightweavers, Artist, Creative/Honest)
A: On a guess, I’d say that Kalak is here to represent the Willshapers, since we have fairly strong evidence that the lightspren/Reachers are the family whose bond makes that order of Knights Radiant. Shalash is probably here because Shallan is drawing again, which is always cool.
P: I love that we get a peek at “Shallan’s” bad art. I love their interaction in regards to the stick figure drawings.
Icon: Kaladin’s Banner & Spears
Epigraph:
Nergaoul was known for driving forces into a battle rage, lending them great ferocity. Curiously, he did this to both sides of a conflict, Voidbringer and human. This seems common of the less self-aware spren.
—From Hessi’s Mythica, page 121
A: Fascinating, Captain. It’s almost like Nergaoul feeds off of the battle lust, and it really doesn’t matter who it’s coming from as long as they go berserk with it. From the perspective of “let’s win the battle” it seems counterproductive, unless originally the effect on the parsh was different than the effect on humans. If, perhaps, the humans get crazy and undisciplined, while the parsh get fiercer and stronger, that would be useful. Otherwise… I dunno.
P: I would surmise that the parsh aren’t prone to battle lust as are humans. So it makes sense that they would instead become fiercer and stronger. In battle, that would be useful against crazed and bloodthirsty humans.
A: So… maybe it’s a feature, not a bug?
P: Yes! Great phrasing!
Stories & Songs
He sat, bleary-eyed on his bunk, listening to beads crash outside the hull. There almost seemed … a pattern or rhythm to them? Or was he imagining things?
A: I’ll admit I don’t see how it would work, but could this be related to the Rhythms that the parsh peoples hear? I’m personally convinced that the Rhythms are something from the Cognitive Realm, but I’ve never had a good theory on what. I don’t know that the beads would necessarily create the rhythms, but perhaps they respond to the same things the parsh are hearing?
P: I found this comment about patterns and rhythms very interesting. I wouldn’t expect that the beads would create the rhythms, they’re more likely to respond, as you say.
A: I wonder if the Rhythms are sort of like spren: Cognitive manifestations of a particular emotion, but in the form of a beat (and/or melody?), rather than the form of a creature. Or is there a sort of “master spren” for each Rhythm, and then the beads pulse in time with whatever “master spren” is nearby? Probably not, but it’s sure fun to wonder about.
P: It’s almost physically painful to wait indefinitely for Brandon’s reveals!
Relationships & Romances
Something felt warm within him at being near her. Something felt right. It wasn’t like with Laral, his boyhood crush. Or even like with Tarah, his first real romance. It was something different, and he couldn’t define it. He only knew he didn’t want it to stop. It pushed back the darkness.
A: Sometimes I forget he’s only twenty. Poor guy hasn’t had much time for relationships, has he? I know a lot of people saw this passage as a strong basis for a romance between Kaladin and Shallan; to me, it’s more of a hint that it’s not actually a romance; it’s something else, but he doesn’t understand what, just yet.
Bruised & Broken
When Kaladin awoke on the ship in Shadesmar, the others were already up. …
He hated that he was the last to rise. That was always a bad sign.
A: While I’m sure it’s not true of everyone who suffers from depression, I can certainly relate to this. When I’m depressed, waking up in the morning (much less getting up) is terribly difficult.
P: I can attest to the fact that it is, indeed, a symptom of depression. Sleeping too much and an inability to get out of bed, much less make oneself presentable or leave the house. What’s interesting to me is that Kaladin is so self-aware regarding his depression and its symptoms. Not everyone who suffers can recognize something like this, even after suffering for decades.
A: That’s so true!! Even after working through causes and effects for years, I find myself not recognizing a symptom like this until it’s been happening for weeks. Even so, I’m glad Sanderson wrote Kaladin as someone who can see it; I think this works much better for the story-telling.
Referencing their night in the chasms, he asks,
“How do you do it, Shallan? How do you keep smiling and laughing? How do you keep from fixating on the terrible things that have happened?”
“I cover them up. I have this uncanny ability to hide away anything I don’t want to think about. It … it’s getting harder, but for most things I can just…” She trailed off, staring straight ahead. “There. Gone.”
“Wow.”
“I know,” she whispered. “I’m crazy.”
“No. No, Shallan! I wish I could do the same.”
She looked at him, brow wrinkling. “You’re crazy.”
A: There’s humor in her words, but it’s a bitter, black humor.
P: This is absolutely a coping mechanism. You try to make light of your illness to avoid stigma.
A: Kaladin envies Shallan the abiltiy to block things out; he would love to not have his mistakes and failures (real or perceived) hanging over him all the time. I can understand that, to be honest.
P: Often, people who suffer from depression also experience anxiety to some extent. Kaladin’s insecurities smack of anxiety regarding what he considers to be mistakes or failures throughout his life.
A: Absolutely. It doesn’t even matter if he recognizes that some of his “mistakes” weren’t actually his fault; he feels like they must have been, so they weigh on him just the same. Then here we get Shallan, finally ready to be honest enough to say what we all know: too much pretending makes you just as unable to function as too much worry. It just doesn’t look like it from the outside.
P: This conversation echoes what was said in the chasms, when Kaladin was so amazed that Shallan smiled anyway. She also mentioned being crazy during that conversation. Another bit of dark humor to cope with her condition.
What I find fascinating about this conversation is that despite hiding her feelings away and ignoring them, she’s imploring Kaladin to not do the same because it’s not healthy. She’s fully aware that she shouldn’t be doing what she’s doing, yet she continues. My therapist would call that self-sabotage.
A: At some level, Shallan does recognize that she is actively damaging herself, poor thing. She just doesn’t see any option that isn’t damaging, so she takes the path that involves the least current pain.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“I had a splinter once,” Shallan noted. “It eventually got out of hand.
“You … you did not just say that.”
“Yes, you obviously imagined it. What a sick, sick mind you have, Kaladin.”
A: There’s a whole bunch more, before and after this, where they’re playing silly word games amid the more serious discussion, but it doesn’t seem to have the usual punch. There’s a reason for this, and we eventually get there:
“Everything on a ship has odd names. Port and starboard instead of left and right. Galley instead of kitchen. Nuisance instead of Shallan.”
“There was a name … railing? Deck guard? No, wale. It’s called a wale.” She grinned. “I don’t really like how it feels to sit against this wale, but I’m sure I’ll eventually get over it.”
He groaned softly. “Really?”
“Vengeance for calling me names.”
“Name. One name. And it was more a declaration of fact than an attack.”
She punched him lightly in the arm. “It’s good to see you smiling.”
“That was smiling?”
“It was the Kaladin equivalent. That scowl was almost jovial.” She smiled at him.
A: We’ve debated Shallan’s humor before, and I still believe that the way she normally teases Kaladin is because she expects him to comprehend the snark involved, not because she thinks she’s better than him. We saw it with her brothers; she teased Balat more gently, because he really wasn’t the brightest sphere in the pouch, while her best wittiness was for Wikim, who was much cleverer. This time, she’s very light, playing with exaggeration and a few bad puns, deliberately drawing him out of his depression—just like she did with her brothers in their bad times.
P: Shallan provides a distraction for Kaladin, much like Tien did with his rocks and childlike enthusiasm about everything. Even at this point, I saw their relationship as close friends, rather than anything remotely romantic.
A: YES.
P: *fist bump*
Weighty Words
A: As noted up there in Bruised & Broken, Shallan seems to be nibbling around the edges of acknowledging that blocking things out and pretending they didn’t happen is actively harming her. I wonder if this means she’s getting close to stating another Truth.
P: I’d like to see her level up again.
I think that her conversation with Wit was very beneficial, in that somebody knew to tell her that she wasn’t a monster, and that that she’s valuable, when she feels she has no value. Further, I think that helping pull Kaladin out of his depression is therapeutic for her. So, keep doing that, Shallan.
Meaningful Motivations
P: Perhaps we could include a bit here about Kaladin wanting to get to Dalinar. It is, after all, the only reason he got out of bed.
A: Good point. He and Azure are totally at odds on this; once they reach Celebrant, he wants to go south to Thaylen City, while she wants to go west to the Horneater Peaks. His reasoning is based on a vision—which no one else trusts—that Dalinar will be in Thaylen City and will desperately need help. Hers is based on knowledge that there’s a Perpendicularity in the Peaks, even though the spren tell them there’s something sketchy going on around it.
Buy the Book
Fate of the Fallen
Motivations, though… motivations are significant, especially in this chapter with Kaladin’s depression and obsession with protecting All The People. As near as I can tell, Azure’s motivation for going to the Perpendicularity is that a) she knows it’s there and b) she wants nothing more than to get out of Shadesmar and back to the Physical Realm. Also, being a worldhopper, it may be easier for her to dismiss the importance of an individual, though I’m just guessing on that one. Kaladin, having failed to keep his friends from fighting each other, and having been unable to stop Moash from killing Elhokar, now feels that the only thing he can do that matters is to protect Dalinar. He’ll take anything to guide him, and all he’s got is Thaylen City, and Dalinar’s need. In his defense, he’s seen trustworthy stuff from the Stormfather before, so I can understand his confidence despite everyone else’s skepticism. But I can also understand their skepticism.
Shadesmar Shenanigans
… the captain turned on a small oil lamp—so far as Kaladin could tell, he didn’t use a flaming brand to create the fire. How did it work? It seemed foolhardy to use fire for light with so much wood and cloth around.
A: Is it real fire? Does Captain Ico have some kind of a fire-starter? Or is this like the ::SPOILER WARNING:: fire that Nazh folded up and carried around in Mistborn: Secret History? That would explain why they don’t worry about open flame, and it seems to fit what happens here. That’s … sort of cool. I hope that’s what’s going on, because I really like it. And as Ico explains, since Stormlight fades quickly in the Cognitive Realm, they can’t rely on spheres for lighting. I guess it hasn’t been an issue thus far, because they’ve been outdoors the whole time (except for the lighthouse) and there isn’t really “nighttime” per se; that expains why the question hasn’t come up before. Huh.
“At Celebrant, the moneychangers have perfect gemstones that can hold the light indefinitely. Similar.”
“Perfect gemstones? Like, the Stone of Ten Dawns?”
A: This is not the first mention of “perfect gems” we’ve seen, though we still don’t know much about them at this point. An Elsecaller mentioned them in the gemstone archive epigraphs, claiming that their Order was duly appointed as keepers of the perfect gems and specifically mentioning one called “Honor’s Drop.” I suppose it makes a certain amount of sense that the perfect gems would end up in Shadesmar, if the Elsecallers were trying to hide them from those who could only access the Physical Realm. Do you suppose the moneychangers are inkspren, still holding the gems on behalf of their order, but devolved into using them as banking devices since the Elsecallers disbanded?
P: This is a great theory, and I have nothing to counter it.
A: Kaladin, naturally, only thinks of perfect gemstones as a way to keep Stormlight accessible to Radiants all through the Weeping. Dalinar will eventually find another use…
P: That’s our Windrunner, constantly thinking of protecting others, constantly looking for ways to survive.
Here, the captain knelt and opened the box, which revealed a strange device that looked a little like a coatrack—although only about three feet tall.
Cradling the sphere in one hand, Ico touched the glass bead he’d put in the fabrial. “This is a soul,” he said. “Soul of water, but very cold.”
“Ice?”
“Ice from a high, high place,” he said. “Ice that has never melted. Ice that has never known warmth.”
A: It’s a Shadesmar fabrial! I’m trying to decide if using the souls of objects (in this case, glacial ice) is better or worse than trapping the non-sentient spren of physical phenomena (like fire or rain) to power devices. Or if either one is all that bad. If they aren’t even sentient, I’m kind of thinking it’s no worse than melting ice or burning wood.
Later, when he tries to explain the device to Shallan, she immediately recognizes the process as condensation and mentions that Navani would be interested in the device. Which is another of the hundreds of little reminders that in Alethi society, the men typically know diddly-squat about science or engineering; they traded all of that, along with literacy, for their precious Shardblades.
Cosmere Connections
She nodded toward Azure, who stood across the deck, holding on to the railling for dear life and occasionally shooting distrusting glances at the Reachers. Either she did not like being on a ship, or she did not trust the spren. Perhaps both.
A: Ah, this makes me laugh! I’d bet it’s both… but I’d also bet that the largest part is that she doesn’t like being on a ship! Our Vivenna didn’t like seafood or anything to do with the sea, and I’m betting that hasn’t changed.
P: That was my first thought, that she was never fond of the sea. It would seem that her travels haven’t changed that particular aspect of her personality.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
They looked like humans with strange bronze skin—metallic, as if they were living statues. Both men and women wore rugged jackets and trousers. Actual human clothing, not merely imitations of it like Syl wore.
A: I don’t have much to say about this, but it’s always worth noting what another family of sapient spren looks like!
P: My thought here was that, since they sometimes provide passage to humans, they wear clothes in order to set their passengers at ease. Imagine how disconcerting it might be for humans to see naked, bronze men traipsing about on the ships.
A: LOL! That would certainly be… disconcerting. It’s a definite possibility.
“You know how to manifest souls?”
“No,” Kaladin said.
“Some of your kind do,” he said. “It is rare. Rare among us too. The gardeners among the cultivationspren are best at it.”
A: We’ve seen both Jasnah and Shallan do this, though Jasnah seemed to do it much more instinctively than Shallan. What’s fascinating is that Lift’s spren Wyndle is probably an expert. Maybe that’s why he had such an impressive array of chairs (or whatever it was)—it was impressive because he was able to manifest their souls in Shadesmar. It seems funny, though, that the spren who are best at this thing are Edgedancer spren—not one of the Orders who can normally even access Shadesmar very readily.
[Syl’s] dress was red, instead of its normal white-blue. Her hair had changed to black, and … and her skin was flesh colored—tan, like Kaladin’s. What on Roshar?
…
“It’s a Lightweaving,” she said. “I asked Shallan, because I didn’t want rumors of an honorspren spreading from the ship’s crew.”
A: Kaladin, naturally, doesn’t have the first clue why this is important, but we’ll all find out eventually. Meanwhile, Syl is an expert at diverting a conversation that she doesn’t want to have; Kaladin tries to admonish her about wasting Stormlight, and she tries to get him to go flirt with Shallan.
P: She’s much like Shallan when it comes to steering a conversation away from an uncomfortable subject.
“Kaladin. I’m your spren. It’s my duty to make sure that you’re not alone.”
“Is that so? Who decided?”
“I did. …”
A: Oh, Syl. You’re so precious. It just goes along with being a piece of a god, you know!
P: We wouldn’t know how to take Syl if she wasn’t being snarky.
[Captain Ico] resembled a Shin man, with large, childlike eyes made of metal. He was shorter than the Alethi, but sturdy.
A: Once again, we’re reminded that the sapient spren reflect the thoughts and visualizations of the humans as they looked when they first came to Roshar. Shin, because of the eyes not yet adapted to the constant winds of eastern Roshar. Shorter, because again, not yet adapted to the lower gravity of Roshar. And… maybe some other things, too, but that’s a start.
A line of copper plating ran down the inside wall of the stairwell…. Touching a plate with the tips of his fingers, Kaladin felt a distinct vibration…. “The copper vibrates,” Shallan said. “And they keep touching it. I think they might be using it to communicate somehow.”
A: Gah. I never know quite what to think about Shallan’s thoughts. Is this Sanderson giving us the answer via Shallan’s guess, or is it misdirection?
P: Much as I want to believe that Shallan is giving us relevant information, because I love the way her mind works during scholarly pursuits, I’m less inclined to trust her completely because, well, Kabsal.
A: Fair point, Kabsal… Sometimes she gets it right, but I think we have to consider her speculation to be unreliable.
And of course, once again I’m wondering if these vibrations are related to the Rhythms, but this one doesn’t seem to make as much sense as the earlier one. Hold the theory loosely…
[The spren sailors] didn’t sleep, but they did seem to enjoy their breaks from work, swinging quietly in hammocks, often reading.
It didn’t bother him to see male Reachers with books—spren were obviously similar to ardents, who were outside of common understandings of male and female. At the same time … spren, reading? How odd.
A: How odd, indeed. I mean… why not, but at the same time… spren, reading? How odd. They’re obviously self-aware, intelligent, and to some extent self-directing, but at the same time, they’re manifestations of thought. I think this just broke my brain.
P: Again, I wonder if they didn’t adopt this habit from human passengers.
Absorbing Artwork
A: As a quick aside, the notes on these drawings are a sharp reminder of Shallan’s scholarly pursuits in the area of natural history. I’ve gotten so used to her Lightweaving, spying, personality issues, etc. that it was almost a shock to see the clear thinking that goes into her observations regarding the mandras.
P: I think Shallan is the most herself when she’s being scholarly. These kinds of scenes are some of my favorites.
A: If you can’t read the text, she talks about size and shape, about the steering mechanisms, and that they don’t seem to have to obey any of the laws of physics when they fly. The movement of the wings doesn’t seem to provide either lift or locomotion, but the shape of the head is exactly the same as the spren she’s seen around skyeels, chasmfiends, and other greatshells. When she points it out, Kaladin recognizes the shape as well.
P: I got a kick out of Syl saying she wanted to ride one. That would have been … interesting.
“Chasmfiends, skyeels, anything else that should be heavier than it actually is. Sailors call them luckspren on our side. … These are biggeer, but I think they—or something like them—help skyeels fly.”
“Chasmfiends don’t fly.”
“They kind of do, mathematically. Bavamar did the calculations on Reshi greatshells, and found they should be crushed by their own weight.”
A: Sanderson has been dropping hints about this ever since the first book came out, and now it’s spelled out in the text: some of the Rosharan critters could not exist, even in a low-grav environment, without magical assistance. So much fun worldbuilding! But here’s the bit that makes me really curious:
“Those mandras, they vanish sometimes. Their keepers call it ‘dropping.’ I think they must be getting pulled into the Physical Realm.”
A: This seems so odd. No one ever sees more of them than the arrowhead shape, and lots of other spren show only a part of themselves in the Physical while not disappearing from the Cognitive. So… am I missing something, or is Shallan just wrong about what’s happening? (Here we go again!) What else could make a mandras disappear? Do they stay in one place in the Cognitive, until the critter they’re accompanying gets too far away in the Physical, and then they jump closer, maybe? That’s all I’ve got, shaky as it is.
P: To be honest, this is something I pretty much skated over during my first couple of reads. But I also found it odd once I took the time to consider it. It doesn’t make sense that the mandras would disappear completely from the Cognitive, considering that most other spren don’t manifest fully in the Physical. What makes them different? There’s always another question, eh?
A: Isn’t there, though! The only thing I can think of that’s even close is (as we’ll see in a few weeks) that windspren are extremely rare in Shadesmar, because they spend most of their time fully in the Physical Realm. The mandras can’t be something super rare, like larkin, if “dropping” is a common occurence. But… gah. I’ve got nothing more. Anyone else have a theory? Someone has to be thinking about it out there…
“And you can’t take them—or most other spren—too far from human population centers on our side. They waste away and die for reasons people here don’t understand.”
A: This one makes more sense to me; since the spren are a reflection of thought, they have to stay where there’s someone to think. (For what it’s worth, I’d bet they aren’t limited to human population centers; a parsh population would probably work just as well. It’s just that, well, it’s been a long time since there were more than one or two small parsh population centers. …That we know of.)
P: Dun, dun, DUNNN…
It also makes sense that because if spren feed on human emotion, they need to stay near population centers.
Quality Quotations
… the ship had wicked harpoons clipped in racks at the sides of the deck. Seeing those made Kaladin infinitely more comfortable; he knew exactly where to go for a weapon.
A: That’s our Kaladin—look for a spear! I mean, since Syl can’t be a Blade here, it’s good to know; and of course it will be useful eventually. I just thought it was funny.
P: Leave it to the soldier to be constantly thinking about defense or escape.
“Where’s your sense of adventure?”
“I dragged it out back and clubbed it senseless for getting me into the army.”
Well, Shadesmar is always fun, so let’s keep talking about it in the comments! Be sure to join us again next week, when we’ll visit Vedenar with a deeply stressed-out Dalinar.
Alice is, as usual in the fall, having fun watching, line judging, and cheering madly for her daughter’s volleyball games. Seriously, y’all have no idea how much time and energy that takes!
Paige resides in New Mexico, of course, and writes to stay sane. No, really. Links to her work are provided in her profile.
Lyndsey is swamped with Renn Faire costuming and work, and was unable to comment this week; she had to limit herself to mapping the team and giving offline feedback. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
This is unfair. It specifies that humans and Voidbringers are different, which we will later find out is untrue.
New speculation…what if the Rhythms are a manifestation of the Sibling in the same way the Highstorms are a manifestation of the Stormfather. This would also tie to the Sibling being absent from the world, as the Parsh had their access to the Rhythms blocked.
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@2 – Fixed, thanks!
IMHO, Nergaoul affecting both sides is a feature because Odium never really was interested in a military victory. It is like Dalinar said – even if all the humans were killed, it would not free him. But the devastation and casualties produced by the Thrill certainly feed hatred on all sides and also, like we have seen, pursuing the feeling of it hollows people out and allows Odium to connect and speak to them.
Concerning mandras – could it be that some of them get trapped in various creatures gemhearts? It is also odd that mandras can fly in Shadesmar, but the honorspren can’t, even though they can in the physical. And even though they look like they are flying to people who can see a bit into Shadesmar, like Rock. Hm…
Now, when Ico speaks about humans who can manifest beads, he can’t be speaking about the Radiants, can he? As far as we know, none have visited Shadesmar since the Recreance. He has to be talking about invested off-worlders. Not sure why those would be shocked if Reachers imitated clothing like honorspren do, rather than wearing it. So yea, it is a bit odd.
Oh, and if spren can’t exist away from thinking physical people, how do voidspren do so on Braize?
We know that Singers are broth to spren, where men are meat ….
Nergaoul’s apparent neutrality is something of an illusion of perception, I think- he doesn’t distinguish between human and parsh, true, but Odium only nominally cares about that distinction either. Nergaoul gives a noticeable advantage to the side that’s most willing to give in to their bloodlust- which is therefore the side that’s doing more to serve Odium.
And the Mandra: I feel like they’ve got to be going into a Greatshell’s gemheart when they drop into the physical. I’m not entirely sure why they need to do that- I don’t know why that needs to happen to maintain the Greatshells, and I don’t know what the Mandra get out of the arrangement, but I do feel fairly certain that that’s what’s going on here. I’d be curious to see how the Chasmfiend harvesting has affected the Mandra; that’s probably doing something bad, right?
Is Hessi distinguishing between “human” and “voidbringer” because she really is a contemporary scholar; because she knows that modern Roshar won’t understand the nuance if reality; or because she considers a human voidbringer to have become something other than human?
We have seen that when Kaladin is in his depressed mood, sometimes Kaladin’s being around Tien or Shallan overcomes his depressed mood. Is is because Tien and Shallan had/have optimistic personalities that allow Kaladin to overcome his depressed mood? Or is it something more magical as Tien was a proto-Lightweaver and Shallan is a Lightweaver? I am asking this as a straight-out question because I do not have an opinion about which is the case.
Funny, how later on in OB Moash will note internally the Fused reading. I think this was intentional on Brandon’s part. Have Kaladin see the spren reading and Moash see the Fused reading. Kaladin’s reaction to the Fused reading also reminded me of Mat’s reaction in WoT when he first sees an Aiel reading.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
The copper plating reminds me of the speaking tubes in old ships (especially steam ones) that allow the bridge to speak with the engine room and elsewhere.
Which came first, fabrials in the Physical using spren, or fabrials in the Cognitive using objects? Could there be some kind of “platonic fabrial” used in the Spiritual?
I wonder how long it will be before Team Radiant worldhoppers will seek out the Celebrant moneychangers to weaponize their spheres.. or maybe Team Odium will beat them to it. I could see Odium ordering a full-on invasion of Shadesmar, especially now that he’s got access to corrupted Oath Gate spren.
The Rhythms could be the waves in the bead ocean.
Are the copper lines related to the strata in Urithiru? The spren seem to use them as a speaking tube.
Books should have spren too. Can those spren read themselves? Shouldn’t the books be beads or creatures in Shadesmar?
@1: Remember that this is a relatively recent book (it even name-drops Jasnah), so “Voidbringer”, here refers to the enemy of the humans. True, humans were the original Voidbringers, but that’s not really the case anymore, ever since Humans abandoned Odium for Honor and Cultivation, which caused Odium to adopt the Parsh, making them the Voidbringers instead.
Also, if Hessi is indeed a Herald, even if she knows the truth about the original Voidbringers, this book would not be the place to drop that particular truth-bomb.
@AndrewHB:
Yes. (You had to see that coming.)
More seriously: they aren’t unrelated. Remember that the Lightweavers were specifically the order that inspired the other Radiants.
As for the rhythms: consider that a rhythm by definition is a pattern of sound. Sanderson is Sanderson, so they have to involve Cryptics.
Sigh, no it isnt. Voidbringers are individuals associated with Odium, like the first human settlers and now the fused. Recent regular humans are not and never have been Voidbringers. and even if it was untrue it wouldnt be unfair, because the source is an in-world-scholar, who wouldnt know about the eila stele
The possible connection between rhythms, spren, patterns, etc is interesting – definitely looking forward to getting more info on the Parshendi eventually.
The way Kaladin is written always feels so authentic to me. Plus I just kind of want to give him a hug, lol. Although not sure he’d be much of a hugger ;)
@13 Havi
Sanderson is specifically stating here (albeit through a character we are supposed to believe has valid knowledge to impart) that Voidbringers are separate from Humans. He didn’t have to include that piece of information and the quote works just as well without it. I call this unfair because it is setting or reinforcing an expectation just so he can later break it.
Also, where id you get the idea that Voidbringer is a term associated with individuals rather than a people or race? Are you saying that Moash is a Voidbringer? Are the Fused? What about everyone they force to work for them?
Do they say if the mandras that vanish ever reapear? If they don’t it could be the hunting of the heart gems that makes them disappear.
You could take the idea of book spren out to infinite because books contain ideas (thoughts) and that would mean a spren had spren.
This is a fun chapter of banter. When re-listening to the audiobook with incomplete attention, I sometimes didn’t follow which lines are Shallan’s and which are Syl’s as they snark at Kaladin.
Surgebinding basically consists of disobeying the laws of physics as we know them, so it’s amusing to be reminded that some version of those laws exist on Roshar; they’re just more…negotiable there than here, for some people.
If mandras are pulling ships, wouldn’t their disappearance be a problem for those ships? Did I miss something?
I might want to ride a mandra, too, if I saw one.
It would be nice if splinters “eventually got out” on their own, instead of needing to be removed by someone with better vision than mine. I somehow got a splinter in my thumb-tip last week, and it pained me for days before my mother extracted it with a sewing needle.
I relate to Vivenna as she was early on in Warbreaker, enough to take it personally when readers criticize her. But I could relate to her dislike of seafood and all other ocean-related things. I don’t know if I have it better or worse than her by loving and savoring oceanic things but also desiring them with burning, bitter, discontentment.
“She’s fully aware that she shouldn’t be doing what she’s doing, yet she continues. My therapist would call that self-sabotage.” Uh, yeah, I do that a lot. Knowing when my thoughts and actions are born of anxiety or depression, and knowing that they’re unhelpful and sometimes harmful, doesn’t make me perfect at preventing them. I believe I’m very self-aware and analytical about my actions and emotions, quickly able to figure out their causes, but don’t always change them appropriately in response.
I understand Kaladin thinking Shallan’s coping mechanism “was working” and enviable even after she indicated … Along with the appeal of the memory-banishing she described, it can be hard for people with depression we haven’t managed to fully hide (e.g. me) to believe that people who seem outwardly happy might be in plenty of emotional pain. I sometimes see people discussing the terrible things in our present world or probable future, and think: How can you let yourself think about that and continue living your life, instead of curling up in a paralysis of terror and despair? Sometimes I’ve found that it actually helps in the short term to have spaces where we can succumb to emotion, weep and wail like adults aren’t supposed to do, to find that we can break and then keep going. Memories of those experiences can lie heavy on the heart, but sometimes they’re worth it. But it’s still hard to see someone who seems happy and believe they aren’t.
@Havi:
Well, aside from Amaram and Aesudan? And everyone who gave in to the Revel and the Thrill? How consciously do you think someone has to work for Odium to be called “Voidbringer”? (See below.)
@RogerPavelle:
Syl actually explains this. Odium is the Void. Anyone who works to bring the Void is a Voidbringer.
Odium’s situation now is much more precarious than he would like, which is one reason he’s so touchy and overreacts sometimes. Most of his current servants are only with him because of lies (told by Venli in large part). He’s honest with his highest-level servants, the ones he speaks to directly (like Amaram and the Fused) but lies by proxy to mass of the Singers, the Iriali, etc. Because much of his power comes from people fooled by his servants, Odium could lose everything simply by having the revived Singers and the Iriali realize what they’re doing, and he knows it. That’s why he rescued Venli from the Fused and made her a Regal instead–he needs an Envoy.
In my mind, only and all of those who consciously serve Odium are Voidbringers. That includes Amaram but not, say, the enspelled Sadeas soldiers. Not saying the Sadeas army were right in their actions, just making a distinction.
@AeronaGreenjoy
The human brain is not a single system. We have various sensory, cognition, and motivational systems that interact in complex ways, and the thinking part of the brain (that can make rational decisions) has limited oversight over the other parts (which use various other methods, like heuristics). Daniel Kahneman’s brilliant Thinking Fast and Slow does a great job of giving an overview of research in this area, but even the greatest living scholar in this area can’t put all of it into one book.
I used to be morbidly obese, and I promise that as a biologist I knew perfectly well the consequences of eating an entire box of cookies by myself before dinner. The rational part of me, with some help from a registered dietitian and lots of failures along the way, had to develop a series of strategies to work around the automated parts and keep me from overeating, and then mostly maintain that for over a year to get down to non-life-threatening fat content. I still have to watch myself all the time. (Down over 100 pounds from my peak weight.)
Whatever that “fire” is, Kaladin’s commentary is a reminder that this societyn though mostly low-tech by our standards, has technology (e.g. safe, fire-less illumation) that our equivalent societies lack(ed). On Earth, in times and places without electricity (outsourced combustion) everyone needed to burn something or other onsite to produce artificial illumination, regardless of how much flammable or combustible material was in the vicinity. That has caused countless disastrous fires of all sizes. Mind you, Roshar’s high oxygen air makes fire even more dangerous that it is on Earth, which is why spheres were invented. It’s just a good thing for Rosharans that the requisite materials and fuel source exist and someone figured out how to use them.
@17: Yeah. I don’t like people saying that anxiety or depression categorically don’t resond to logic and rationality, because sometimes for some people they do — I can often respond myself out of an acute meltdown — and that shouldn’t make us doubt whether we have the condition or hesitate to seek treatment, as I have. But in the long term and often the short term, it’s true.
Nothing essential to add about the current chapter, but I do have a question, I ‘m burning to ask practically since I started my OB Re-Read earlyer this summer. I’ve read all the posts, but not all comments, so I apologize if this was asked before. But having finally caught up with the ReRead I don’t want to wait any longer:
Where do the exact dates (WHEN: 1174.2.4.2 ) come from. There were so many chapters, when I thought that there was no time-reference whatsoever, and yet you (Alice/Lyndsey) “always” managed to give an exact date. – Is this information you have from the Beta-Read / Team Sanderson?
Syl’s matchmaking is one of the things that felt “off” to me about OB. She’s never been like that before, but all of the sudden now that the love triangle (quadrangle?) is here, she’s an active Shalladin shipper. Not in response to Shallan’s actions, mind you, she starts with the “you need to be with someone, how about Shallan?” back when Kal was in Hearthstone. It doesn’t feel organIc to me; it comes off like Syl looked at the script and was like “Okay, I see it says there’s a love triangle coming up.”
Had to get this off my chest. There’s many thing I love about OB, and many things I dislike. The handling of the love triangle is at the top of my dislike list.
I am not a fan of the love triangle, but I do get why Syl is pushing Kaladin towards Shallan. Syl is Kaladin’s spren, she knows that there is something wrong, and that Shallan makes Kaladin feel better. Syl has seen and felt the consequences of Kaladin sinking into the depths of depression; of course she wants to help steady him out.
@20 There was an article – either here or on Brandon’s website about how someone on the team was in charge of making a complete timeline and matching chapters to it as part of Brandon’s outlining process so he could make sure people had enough time to move/do things/continuity. I’d guess that as beta readers, our awesome recapers have access to that spreadsheet.
@21 and 22, I agree with nighteron. I also didn’t love the triangle, am happy it concluded and satisfied in how it did, and I feel like Syl – who isn’t human and still doesn’t fully understand even Kaladin – is simply responding the simple stimuli of I need something to protect Kaladin, this seems to work, let’s fixate on this.
So the thing that is low-key bothering me about this chapter is where is the water coming from on the condensation thing? Obviously from humidity but where is the humidity coming from? I thought it didn’t rain in the cognitive realm and there are no pools of water so it must be from either the physical realm or produced from Investment itself.
@24 Yeah, I am just accepting that for whatever reason/mechanism, there is a normal atmosphere in Shadesmar containing both oxygen and water vapor and all the normal good stuff. What would be interesting is if the atmosphere was constant between all worlds – the same air in Sel’s, Scadrial’s, Roshar’s cognitive realms. I there is only one cognitive realm with just different regions, just as there is only one physical realm with different worlds scattered throughout it, so maybe the same atmosphere exists across all the different “shadesmars” for each world? The reason I bring that up is if it’s the case, I wonder if Rosharans should be feeling a type of altitude sickness as the general atmosphere may have lower oxygen than Roshar in particular has. Or, maybe the atmosphere of each area of the cognitive mimics the atmosphere of the world it is paired with.
Thought I’d throw a few pence in with this and share some thoughts.
1) Entirely convinced that “Hessi” is in fact Khriss. Reasons? Someone writing about the strange happenings of sentient and non sentient spren. Trying to divorce fact from fiction? Has a strange amount of knowledge about the unmade and the surges? Just when our heroes needed information, even sparse information? And has a wealth of knowledge, even if it isn’t credible, about the unmade from somewhere. All seems as if it would be right up her alley and not so far fetched if you consider that she is often popping up and taking interest in the way investiture,science and natural phenomena coalesce.
2) I’ve been wondering something from a few chapters ago about the understanding of the oaths and wherever they have any bearing on a radiants abilities. The second surge of each radiant who isn’t associated with it primarily is always more difficult (and dangerous) to use. Sooo is it enough to just speak the words and then gain experience with the second power? or is it more about understanding what the oaths represent and coming to terms with that to progress? (I am basing this on what Nohadon says later on “You’ve said the oaths but do you understand the journey?”)
3) Loving the reread, the discussion that comes from it and seeing things from a different perspective.
Re: Syl and the Triangle
I find it in keeping that a non-physical being without full understanding of human relationship norms wouldn’t see the complex nature of the consequences of a relationship between Kal and Shallan would be. She knows he likes her, she sees that he’s less mopey whenever they interact, and her recovering experiences inform her that her knight needs something she cannot provide but Shallan can. She’ll fixate on Shallan because who else does Kal interact with in this fashion? I see Syl as kind of a teenager in terms of her social development so far. Simple answers can still suffice for her. Maybe once Kal hits oath 4 she’ll gain more nuance. Even so, I don’t expect complete understanding even if they eventually merge souls aka oath 5.
Re: Air in Shadesmar
It was my assumption that since breathing is mostly an unconscious function that air exists there without one really thinking about it. Therefore the same air one has where they enter Shadesmar is the same air they experience breathing while there. I don’t expect any air is needed in the SR because I don’t think anyone has an actual body there but since we haven’t visited there in the narrative I’m not sure of the accuracy of that statement.
About Air in Shadesmar
@28 Havi
That leads me to wonder: Is the air in Cognitive Realm the soul of the air in the Physical Realm? Is that why it seems so easy to soulcast air into other things, because it is easy to find the soul of air wherever you look?
@nightheron, who says it’s easy to Soulcast air? I believe we only see one person do it in 3 books. Once. After Someone supercharges her with Stormlight by Ascending and bridging the Three Realms.
@carl, many if not most of the barracks on the Shattered Plains were made by turning air into rock. The Soulcasters were able to make the shape of the buildings without having anything pre-formed for them, which doesn’t seem to be like the soulcasting of other types of substances that we have seen.
I think Jasnah was soulcasting air into stone steps as she was running– so it only took her a split second, as she was running, to create a series of stone objects out of thin air. This seems to have been before Dalinar opened his Perpendicularity, though the timing when POVs are switching can get tricky.