Get out your bottles (small or otherwise), because this week’s a long one. And a difficult one, if we’re being honest. Adolin and Kaladin are both struggling with some pretty heavy issues in their own ways, and Past!Dalinar is deep in the throes of alcoholism. It’s not easy to see our favorite characters in such hardship, but of course they must hit bottom before they can start clawing their way back up.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread—if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
We actually don’t have spoilers from other books this week (for the first time since Nightblood and Azure showed up). There are a few little mentions of Warbreaker, but nothing that we’d consider a spoiler. So even if you’ve never read anything else from the Cosmere, you should be fine.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Adolin; Past!Dalinar; Kaladin
WHERE: Shadesmar; Eastern Alethkar; Shadesmar
WHEN: 1174.2.3.4; 1166; 1174.2.3.4 (Chapters 93 and 95 are the same day as chapter 91; Chapter 94 is roughly seven years ago)
Adolin wakes up in Shadesmar, and he and Azure and Kaladin do a kata by the edge of the water. They collectively assess their supplies then realize that they’ve drawn the attention of some anger spren.
Seven years ago, Past!Dalinar is on another bender. When he can’t find any booze in his room, he yells at his sons, but Renarin returns with a small bottle of liquor for him and Dalinar weeps for his losses.
Back in Shadesmar, Kaladin is struggling with his depression. They hike for several days along the “river” before finally reaching one of the lighthouses where they hope to barter for passage across the sea, as well as gain some more provisions.
Beginnings
Titles
Chapter 93: Kata
Adolin sighed, then started a morning kata. Without a sword, he fell back on the first kata he’d ever learned—an extended sequence of stretches, hand-to-hand moves, and stances to help loosen his muscles.
Chapter 94: A Small Bottle
Renarin had returned, timid as always, his spectacled eyes wide and his hand trembling. He held something out.
A small bottle.
Chapter 95: Inescapable Void
Then that numbness would claim him and make it hard to do anything at all. It would become a sinking, inescapable void from within which everything looked washed out. Dead.
Heralds
Chapter 93: Talenel—Herald of War. Dependable/Resourceful, Stonewards, Soldier.
Ishar—Herald of Luck. Pious/Guiding. Bondsmiths. Role: Priest.
A: Adolin as Soldier—which his role most certainly is at this point—is enough reason for Taln to be here. I think he’s also displaying his dependability and resourcefulness in this bizarre situation. I’m a little less certain of Ishar’s purpose; I can’t help wondering if it has something to do with Azure, though I couldn’t say what. She, along with the spren, definitely gives a fair bit of guidance to the team, so maybe that’s it.
L: Shallan is displaying a lot of resourcefulness as well, taking stock of their possessions and all.
Chapter 94: Paliah—Learned/Giving, Truthwatchers, Scholar
A: This one seems pretty obvious. Renarin displays the attribute of Giving, and he will eventually become a Truthwatcher. (Yes, I know, his spren is corrupted and we don’t know what effect that will have, but he’s still, as far as we know, a Truthwatcher.)
Chapter 95: Jezrien—Herald of Kings, Protecting/Leading, Windrunners, King
Vedel—Loving/Healing, Edgedancers, Healer
A: The Windrunner for Kaladin—especially when he’s busy being a Windrunner—is pretty common, though he’s doing very little protecting or leading. I can’t help remembering the Prelude: “There, in Jezrien’s eyes, Kalak saw anguish and grief. Perhaps even cowardice. This was a man hanging from a cliff by a thread.” And later, “He seemed so cold. Like a shadow caused by heat and light falling on someone honorable and true, casting this black imitation behind.” I can’t help wondering if Kaladin’s state of mind here, anger hovering on the brink of deep depression, is reflective of that scene long ago.
Icons
Chapter 93: The Shardbearer for an Adolin POV
Chapter 94: Inverse Kholin Glyphpair, for a Dalinar flashback
Chapter 95: Banner & Spears, for Kaladin
Epigraphs
Taxil mentions Yelig-nar, named Blightwind, in an oft-cited quote. Though Jasnah Kholin has famously called its accuracy into question, I believe it.
—From Hessi’s Mythica, page 26Yelig-nar had great powers, perhaps the powers of all Surges compounded in one. He could transform any Voidbringer into an extremely dangerous enemy. Curiously, three legends I found mention swallowing a gemstone to engage this process.
—From Hessi’s Mythica, page 27
A: Hey, Hessi must be a Herald. Who else would dare disagree with Jasnah Kholin?
Well, okay. That isn’t exactly proof, but I couldn’t resist. In any case, if the second epigraph is connected to the first and the powers of Yelig-nar are what Jasnah questioned, she turned out to be wrong and Hessi is right. We didn’t really see much of Aesudan demonstrating Yelig-nar’s powers; she got the glowing red eyes, the black smoke the beginnings of the carapace, and iirc she managed floating off the ground, but that’s about all we saw. Odium later (chapter 118) tells Amaram that she “tried this, and the power consumed her.” Following that, though, we see Amaram swallow the gemstone and begin to display… well, maybe not all the Surges, but a bunch of them!
Side note on something that struck me: Hessi phrases it as Yelig-nar transforming “any Voidbringer” into that nightmare we saw Amaram become. It’s an interesting choice of word, and can be interpreted several ways. Since she’s talking about the past, one could assume she meant “one of those legendary Voidbringers, whatever they were.” Or, if she knew more, she might specifically be thinking about the parsh, even though they seem harmless at the time she’s writing. Or… it might be an implication about what a Voidbringer really is: anyone, regardless of species, who chooses to draw on Odium’s Investiture for power.
Relationships & Romances
Father could have slept on the ground, a part of him thought. Dalinar is a true soldier.
A: Adolin’s thoughts in the beginning of this chapter are … well, interesting. He’s waking up in a nightmare sort of place, after watching his city fall to the Fused and the parsh, and he’s feeling profoundly unnerved about life, the universe, and everything. I’ve written recently about how I thought he did a great job as a leader for this group, getting on with what had to be done no matter how he felt. I still think that. But this week, we’re getting into his mind when no one needs him to do anything.
He’s almost—almost—falling into self-pity. He’s feeling inadequate, and like most of us in that case, he’s reviewing his every failure and perceived failure of the last few months. As so often with him, he views his failures through the lens of his father’s expectations and (supposed) perfections.
Adolin thought again of the jolt he’d felt when ramming his dagger through Sadeas’s eye and into his brain. Satisfaction and shame. Strip away Adolin’s nobility, and what was left? A duelist when a world needed generals? A hothead who couldn’t even take an insult?
A murderer?
A: It’s easy to psychoanalyze the other guy, but isn’t this true of most of us? Not that we have the same position, nor the same cause for guilt, but… don’t we? We all have status and position that other people see, and we all have our own secret faults that give us a constant sense of impostor syndrome. Many of us—though certainly not all—feel a certain sense of having failed to live up to what our parents hoped for us. I’m not saying it’s a great thing, mind you; I’m just saying that Adolin’s feelings this morning are common to humanity. And he knows it:
“I’m being childish, aren’t I?” Adolin asked.
L: I love that Adolin can self-analyze well and realize when he’s being immature.
“So, forces moving in the world now make me look insignificant. That’s no different from a child growing up and realizing his little life isn’t the center of the universe. Right?”
Problem was, his little life had been the center of the universe, growing up. Welcome to being the son of Dalinar storming Blackthorn.
A: Except… it never was. Dalinar’s vicinity was, perhaps, the center of Alethkar, but hardly the universe.
L: Well, he may not have been the center of the universe, but I think he’s always been the center of Adolin’s universe, as many parents are for children. Adolin just seemed to come to this “my parent isn’t perfect” realization later than most.
A: I had the impression that he was thinking that the Blackthorn had been pretty central to All The Things, and as the Blackthorn’s son, he was part of that centrality. And face it, he was pretty important in Alethkar, but I don’t think he quite realizes yet that a lot of Roshar doesn’t care about Alethkar, much less the rest of the universe.. Until now, anyway; from the moment at the end of this book where Dalinar stands against Odium, a whole lot of forces in the Cosmere will be centered on Dalinar. Oh, Adolin. What you have to look forward to…! Anyway, I like what he does with it all:
Adolin sighed, then started a morning kata. … The forms calmed him. The world was turning on its head, but familiar things were still familiar. Strange, that he should have to come to that revelation.
A: Unlike me, Adolin actually does something useful to deal with his emotions: he does something physical and familiar. I absolutely love that Azure comes to join him, matching him move for move; then Kaladin joins them too, less practiced, but still doing the same routine. The obvious reason for including this in “Relationships” is not yet obvious to the characters, but it becomes clear eventually. They all learned this as their first kata, from their first swordmaster, who will turn out to be the same person for all three. Sweet.
L: It’s also really cool to see because it’s a big bonding moment for them. Adolin and Kaladin have fought side by side before, but Azure was still very much on the outside.
A: Yes, I think this is a huge step toward the three of them becoming more “family,” or at least equals, in this escapade.
Adolin stood his ground. Almost seventeen now, fully a man. The other one, the invalid, cringed down. He looked younger than his … what … twelve years? Thirteen?
A: I was absolutely furious with Dalinar over this one. We knew how dismissive he’d been of Renarin ever since his neurodevelopmental issues became noticeable, but this! His sons have been traveling with him for weeks or months at this point, and he still can’t be bothered to even remember his younger son’s name, never mind his age. They’re just “Adolin” and “the other one.” Granted, he really hated the way Evi invented the name Renarin, so there’s that, but… still. And despite all the rejection, Renarin has the courage to step in and try to help:
A small bottle. “I…” Renarin swallowed. “I got you one, with the spheres the king gave me.”
…
Oh Almighty. Oh God. Oh God, please… I’ve started to hate my sons. Why hadn’t the boys learned to hate him back? They should hate him. He deserved to be hated.
Please. Anything. I don’t know how to get free of this. Help me. Help me…
Dalinar wept and clung to that youth, that child, as if he were the only real thing left in a world of shadows.
L: This broke my heart into a million little pieces.
A: Pretty sure I cried the first time I read this… and maybe several other times as well.
L: The relationship between Dalinar and his sons is so complex and real. It’s very rare to find a family without conflict, and this one… boy does it have conflict. I think that a good portion of Dalinar’s redemption hinges from this moment. Evi’s death and his guilt sent him into the depressive/alcoholic spiral, but it was his sons who drove him to seek out the change that would bring him peace. He becomes the very man that his mother always told them he was. What a wonderful tribute to her memory. I only wish she’d lived to see it. And speaking of Evi:
“What did she tell you?” he said, voice ragged. “What did your mother say about me?”
“The only honest officer in the army,” Renarin said, “the honorable solder. Noble, like the Heralds themselves. Our father. The greatest man in Alethkar.”
L: This woman was a saint.
A: Indeed. So ironic, that just moments before he was thinking, “How many lies about him had she stuffed into their heads?” We’ll never know how much of it she believed, and how much she said out of loyalty to her husband; honestly, I’ll bet she didn’t always know where that line was. But her consistent determination to always show respect to her husband, even when she was telling him she didn’t like something he was doing… to me, it’s a beautiful thing, and a big reason that she’s one of my favorite characters. She was an amazingly strong woman.
There was an insufferable spring to his step, like he was actually excited by this horrible place. Idiot Adolin, who probably didn’t even understand the consequences of—
Stop it. STOP IT. He helped you.
L: I really, really hope that the friendship between the two of them eventually gets stronger. I think Adolin is uniquely equipped to help Kaladin through moments like this, as someone who will understand and won’t immediately shut Kaladin out should he voice an outburst like this.
A: 100% agree. Adolin could be one of the best things to happen to Kaladin, as someone whom he can consider an equal in ways the rest of Bridge Four will never quite be.
Kaladin would have preferred to take the rearguard, but if he tried, Adolin positioned himself to the back again. What did the princeling think? That Kaladin would lag behind, if not minded?
L: Yeah, Kal, pretty sure that’s exactly what he thinks, and I’m willing to bet he’s right. Once again Adolin is displaying his care and concern through his actions and not just empty words.
A: This was both funny and poignant, because… well, that’s literally what was happening just yesterday, dude.
Bruised & Broken
They’d done it again! They’d taken his bottles. How dare they? Couldn’t they hear the weeping? … The weeping echoed around him. Children dying. Evi begging for her life.
A: We don’t know for sure how much of this is imagination and how much is echoing from the Spiritual Realm, but either way it’s destroying his sanity. (Or is it evidence of his sanity having been destroyed?) As much as this level of drunkenness is a tragedy, I can’t help understanding his need to drown it out.
For a time, away from civilization, Dalinar had felt like himself. His old self.
He hated that person.
L: Ah, the duality. He wants to be that person again, but he hates that person. He can’t pull himself out of his own spiral long enough to see what—or who—else he could possibly be. And he doesn’t manage it on his own, either. He’s going to need supernatural assistance.
A: It’s made harder because everyone around him admired his old self, or at least respected him. He was the man that Gavilar needed, and the only reason the quest for kingship happened. Everyone who pledges loyalty to Gavilar does so in part because of the Blackthorn; no one else sees the torment he’s experiencing over the realization that the Blackthorn was sort of a horrible person.
Because the darkness was coming.
It fed off the pain of defeat, the agony of losing men he’d tried to protect. But it could feed off anything. Life going well? The darkness would whisper that he was only setting himself up for a bigger fall. Shallan glances at Adolin? They must be whispering about him. Dalinar sends him to protect Elhokar? The highprince must be trying to get rid of Kaladin.
L: Oof. This is so, so relatable. Depression is a terrible thing and it can feed off of nothing at all. That’s the worst part. You know, intellectually, that these things your mind whispers to you aren’t true. But knowing and feeling are two very different things.
Then that numbness would claim him and make it hard to do anything at all. It would become a sinking, inescapable void from within which everything looked washed out. Dead.
Within that dark place, he’d wanted to betray his oaths. Within that dark place, he’d given up the king to assassins and murderers.
L: Poor Kaladin. He’s made mistakes, yes. But he’s always so hard on himself, harder than he is on anyone else. He’s willing to overlook a lot of flaws and mistakes. But only for others. Hardly ever can he forgive himself.
A: It’s so painful to read about Kaladin like this; I can almost understand the people who complain about “whiny Kaladin”… except that it’s so realistic. Depression is all too real. I personally think Sanderson did a better job than most (in my experience) at portraying a character who suffers from actual depression, rather than just the “emo dude” that you get too often in books.
“It just feels like… like we’re abandoning Kholinar. And only I care. You were talking about how to get food, find a way to the Horneater Peaks, this perpendicularity or whatever. But we’re abandoning people to the Voidbringers.”
“I care too!” Adolin said. “Bridgeboy, that was my home. It—”
“I know,” Kaladin snapped.
L: I really love that Kaladin is talking to other people about this. So often he takes all those emotions and smothers them inside instead of airing them out, especially if he knows they’re irrational. This is a good step for him, and one I’m happy to see.
A: He wouldn’t be doing it if it weren’t for the angerspren, I think; they make it very obvious that someone is angry, and it’s dangerous for them here. It doesn’t take long to work out who, and so he sort of has to defend himself and accept their help to deal with it. The beauty of it is that, whatever the motivating force, he is talking about it—and he’s even talking to the whole group, which is healthy for them all.
He could see too many sides. Parshmen angry at being enslaved for years, attempting to overthrow a corrupt government. Alethi protecting their homes from invading monsters. Elhokar trying to save his son. The palace guards trying to keep their oaths.
Too many eyes to see through. Too many emotions.
L: With great power comes great responsibility, and for Kaladin, with knowledge comes the pain of understanding the true horrors of war.
A: There are drawbacks to being able to see other people’s perspective; sometimes it’s hard to do what you think ought to be “right” because you can see exactly why the other person disagrees. I can’t help thinking that this is going to continue to be a challenge for Kaladin, because you can’t lose the ability to empathize with the other guy.
L: Well, this is a first. Let’s talk a little bit about Syl in this section for a change.
“I bonded a Knight Radiant. … I bonded him soon after I was born. He was an elderly man, kindly, but he did fight. In one battle. And he died… I wasn’t ready for the bond. Spren normally weather the loss of their Radiant, but I… I lost myself when I lost him.”
L: I can’t imagine how difficult it must have been for the spren who lost their Radiants like this. Their friendships are deeper than a “normal” friendship is, due to the bond. They can sort of sense one another’s emotions, it seems, and the spren at least understands quite a lot about their Radiant’s state of mind (though that doesn’t seem to work the other way). That loss must be an awful shock, and the spren do seem to grieve similarly to some humans.
Squires & Sidekicks
A: I sometimes have a hard time treating Adolin’s sword as a spren; she feels like more of a sidekick.
“What do you think of all this?” Adolin asked the woman with the scratched-out eyes. She didn’t respond, but he often talked to his sword without it responding.
A: I had to include this, because I love the way he unconsciously accepts this odd-looking spren as his sword, at least in this thought. When he thinks about it, it’s still a little awkward, but when he’s just musing… he talks to his sword like he’s always done. She just looks different here.
L: I love this too. Adolin’s never cared about appearances (except when it comes to fashion anyway), and this is just another example of that.
A: Isn’t that funny? But maybe it makes sense. Fashion is a hobby for him; it’s fun, but it’s not an essential characteristic. It’s a matter of having a good tailor and enough money to spend. Because he’s had the opportunity to indulge the hobby, he knows just how superficial appearance can be, so it doesn’t matter all that much to him. In other people, anyway!
Flora & Fauna
The thin peninsula wasn’t barren…. Growing along its edges were small, brittle plants that looked like ferns. … Most were black, but occasionally they had vibrant colors, blended together like stained glass.
A: I think it’s funny that there actually are living growing plants, however fragile and oddly colored, in the Cognitive realm.
L: I wish we knew how these survive here! There’s no water…
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“I made a list of our supplies.” … “We have my satchel, with charcoal, reed pens, brushes, ink, lacquer, some solvents, three sketchpads, my sharpening knife, and one jar of jam I’d stowed inside for an emergency snack.”
A: LOL! Three cheers for the jam!
L: Hopefully not poisoned this time. I’m surprised she can still eat the stuff after that experience back in The Way of Kings.
“Wonderful,” Kaladin said. “I’m sure a pile of brushes will be useful in fighting off Voidspren.”
“Better than your tongue, which is notably dull lately….”
A: I could be wrong, but IMO this sounds very much like Shallan ordinarily expects Kaladin to have a snappy comeback when she makes a smart remark at him. I know we, your friendly neighborhood bloggers, have disagreed on this in the past; what I see as “treating him like an equal” others see as “punching down” because of her higher social standing. Of course I’m reading this from my perspective, but I really do think she normally enjoys the “witty badinage” she and Kaladin have had at times. One or two of her brothers were able to play the word games with her, and they frequently hinged on rude puns or lighthearted insults. Finding an equal in Kaladin—and a guy who’s far more her equal than her brothers ever were—would have seemed normal to her. Not “normal” in the sense of “this is frequent in society” but in the sense of “this is what I was used to in my isolated life.” Ah, well. JMO.
Cosmere Connections
“… we have maybe one day’s worth of water and three meals for four people. Last time I crossed Shadesmar, it took four weeks.”
A: Well, that’s not good… So of course Kaladin (still feeling guilty about the people he left behind) thinks they should try to go back through the Oathgate, which isn’t really one of the options.
“Our land, every land, is three realms. The highest is the Spiritual, where gods live—there, all things, times, and spaces are made into one.
“We’re now in the Cognitive Realm. Shadesmar, where spren live. You are from the Physical Realm.”
A: And there you have Realmatic Theory in a nutshell. My big question is, if the Spiritual Realm is where gods live, does she mean the Shards? And if all things, times, and spaces are one there, how is Odium bound to Roshar? Or is he (oooooh, maybe) blocked from the Spiritual Realm, and bound in the Cognitive? That’s my only guess.
“There’s another way to transfer between realms,” Azure said. “I’ve used it.” … Finally, she sighed deeply. “Story time?”
“Yes, please,” Adolin replied.
A: And we all say with Adolin, YES, PLEASE! And she tells them she comes from “a far land” and that’s it for background. Rats.
L: We’ll probably get the rest of that backstory when Sanderson eventually gets around to writing that Warbreaker sequel, so I can see why he’s being close-mouthed here.
A: At least she does tell them about travelling in Shadesmar; about Cultivation’s Perpendicularity in the Horneater Peaks (yes, that’s probably how Hoid got here, and that’s probably who Rock saw climbing out of the lake); and that there is supposedly another perpendicularity which is “unpredictable and dangerous, and appears randomly in different places.” Most readers have assumed that Honor’s Perpendicularity is in the highstorms, but I don’t buy that; the denizens of Shadesmar know about highstorms, and they’d hardly call that “unpredictable,” much less “appearing randomly.” I suspect that it’s wherever the Stormfather wants to put it at any given moment, and might be involved in those few times when Kaladin was able to converse with him – tied to the barracks roof, and in the chasm with Shallan. But at this point it’s all speculation.
L: Hmm. This is definitely a big question, and one that we’ll have to keep an eye on going forward…
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
He hurled the sphere into the sea, where it skittered against its fellows.
A: Ummm… what happens to an object in the physical realm when its cognitive form is flung around by someone in Shadesmar? Seems like that should mess things up somehow.
L: That’s a good question, but somehow I don’t think that the exact location of the bead is what’s important. As long as it’s nearby. Now… what would happen if one of those beads were to break is a bigger question. Can they even be broken?
He was interrupted by a haunting screech. It was reminiscent of sheets of metal grinding against one another…
“What was that?” Kaladin demanded.
“You remember before we slept, how I said we’d be fine unless we attracted the wrong kind of spren?”
L: I just have to say that all I can imagine in regards to this sound is the Nazgul in Lord of the Rings.
A: Quite likely an apt comparison!
“What are they like? You said those sounds were from angerspren? Boiling pools of blood?”
“That’s the part you see in the Physical Realm. Here … that’s merely their saliva, pooling as they drool. They’re nasty.”
A: “Boiling pools of blood” is nasty enough as an image associated with anger. The thought that the actual spren are great big things who drool boiling pools of blood… Yikes. This reminds me of the bit in the “extra scene” with Jasnah, where they hear what sounds like a large nasty beastie near them; when Ivory tells her it’s a painspren and they need to leave now, she objects that painspren are harmless. Ivory responds, “On your side, harmless. Here, harmmore. Very harmmore.” Sounds like angerspren are also harmmore!
“We can barely see [the windspren] on this side. Did you know that? Some spren live mostly in your realm. I suppose the wind is always there somewhere, so they don’t fade like passions do.”
L: So does this mean that the spren that are representations of “physical” things (like fire or windspren) are all more present on the physical plane than the cognitive? Is it just some of them, or all? Syl’s second comment here about how passions fade seems to indicate this.
A: Hmm. I think that’s a fair guess. Things like rainspren and flamespren would still fade out when the rain stops or the fire goes out, but windspren and lifespren are pretty ubiquitous, so… yes?
Alcoholic Artwork
L: It’s painful for this otherwise interesting artwork to be placed here, before this particular flashback of Dalinar’s.
A: Hooooo boy. Isn’t it, though. I mean, I’m really glad they included it, because it’s quite cool, and details a lot of things that have been mentioned elsewhere. But… ouch. Right before we see Dalinar in the depths of full-blown alcoholism.
L: As someone who quite enjoys an occasional drink, I loved to see this chart. Interesting that sapphire wine tastes like whiskey! I wonder if the “wines” on Roshar are just various hard liquors for the most part. Maybe something like how every bird is a “chicken,” every alcoholic beverage of the spirits variety is a “wine.” I could be way off on this one, but it seems odd that there would be such variance in the alcohol content otherwise.
A: Yeah, I think Brandon has said “wine” is very much like “chicken.” They don’t actually have grapes on Roshar, IIRC, but they did on Ashyn, so all the alcohols are called “wine” and identified by color rather than by what was fermented or where it originated. Pink wine is probably the equivalent of wine spritzers, and violet is … maybe a strong rum? (Horneater White is obviously Everclear.)
L: Do we have any idea who the person writing in the margins on this is? Whoever it is, I like them. “I’ve had milk more intoxicating than this” indeed!
A: Heh. That would be our old buddy Nazh. I love his sense of humor—which I’m thinking is mostly Isaac being snarky! But I have to wonder, with the way most of Team Dragonsteel drinks (as in, not), who wrote the descriptions? I guess those can be researched like anything else!
Quality Quotations
“Um… you’re supposed to watch out for Cryptics.”
Pattern hummed happily. “Yes. We are very famous.”
* * *
“Humans, you must stop your emotions. They are very inconvenient here.”
Whew! That was a long one! Next week we’ll be tackling chapter 96 all on its lonesome, and join Navani for some political negotiations.
Alice is gearing up for a new school year (for her daughter) and volleyball season (also for her daughter). Expect to see lots of volleyball-related stuff here for a few months.
Lyndsey is exhausted from working a three day weekend at the Connecticut Renaissance Faire, but was very excited to see a Mistborn cosplayer wandering the streets of the shire! If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
Great article, as always.
Dalanar’s flashback takes place at some outpost near Rathalas, but I am not sure where exactly he is on the map. Probably somewhere south of Kholinar near the top of the lake and the Unclaimed Hills.
Roshar might not have grapes, but didn’t Adolin liken stabbing Sadeas in the eye as popping a grape (lovely image, that)? They can’t be getting grapes from Shinovar; they would be raisins by the time they crossed the continent.
Brandon semi-explains the wine thing earlier in the book, when Shallan went drinking. Some of the “wines” are just various alcohols infused with color.
I drink like team Dragonsteel, but the chart is still pretty interesting.
What’s the “extra chapter” referenced regarding Jasnah?
I love the wine chart :) And I wish he had wines/spirits in such fun colors ;)
Reading Kaladin is always one of those experiences that is really painful because of how well done/resonating it is.
Dalinar has definitely hit rock bottom here…not to this extent, but I do know that feeling of having the big a-ha moment where you realized you’ve treated someody who really cares about you like garbage. It’s not a good feeling, but it is necessary.
@@.-@: https://www.tor.com/2014/08/06/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance/
@6 Thank you!
Wife, not mother. Or “their mother” and not “his mother”. I believe we have never actually met Dalinar’s and Gavilar’s parents, have we? Do we even know if they have other sibs? It would seem not, but there’s no reason a (for instance) younger sister couldn’t be out there somewhere, or another brother have died as a child.
Oh boy. I get to participate in the reread again for the “Small Bottle” chapter. Where my reaction was /is so different than well, 90% of the people who read it.
It doesn’t cause me to weep – it causes me to rage. It doesn’t soften my heart to Past!Dalinar – It makes me rage. It makes me feel that the current relationship Dalinar has with his sons now is handwavy per Sanderson. It makes me want to shake Adolin for idolizing his father so much in the now. When, he had ample examples to see his father as less than perfect.
I know Sanderson also threw out the line earlier in the series “That we don’t remember the past correctly. We edit our memories so the past more reflexes the current person.” So again – handwavy to make a better relationship with Dalinar and his sons. Eve spun many lies to help her son’s see their father in a good light.
Fifteen to 18 year old Adolin should have developed some resentment towards drunk daddy.
I know many people are moved by Past!Dalinar hugging Renarin. I just felt rage at a drunk feeling temporary remorse – but who wasn’t going to CHANGE one bit of behavior. And that’s exactly what happened. He remained a drunk addict. Much like Teft is an addict. An addict bent on destroying their own life, and might take others down with them.
I can’t see Dalinar with shining lights of pure goodness. Eve’s forgiveness is more important than my forgiveness. Dalinar has done things to redeem himself. But I’m mad on Adolin’s behalf that he still sees his father with the massive rose colored glasses. I want him to see him in a more balanced light – as most children who have suffered at the hands of an abusive addict of a parent – have to see their parents to save themselves.
The pure hero worship we see from Adolin here bothers me greatly when we now know the truth of Dalinar’s behavior.
I want to hug Renarin so hard. And slap Dalinar even harder.
I hurt for all the kids who have lived Renarin’s life as the ignored child desperate for approval and love from their abusive, neglectful, addict of a parent.
@9 this is the power of hindsight: we KNOW Dalinar gets better. and yes, he did change. Dalinar is not the druken jerk that he was, does he still have trouble connecting with Renarin? yes, but he still tries to support him now. He became overprotective of him, telling him not to fight. in a world where if you’re not a ardent or a woman, you can’t study, to the point that noblewomen were making fun of Ranarain, Dalinar comes into the room and takes a seat because no one will tell him to sit down and shut up, all in support of his son. did he abuse his children in the past? yes. but he made sure he tried to be better. redemption is a long road, but he’s on the path.
Re: Nightblood’s travels – Brandon has said that Nightblood has exchanged hands “more times that you would think” – in between Warbreaker and now. So the criminal Azure is chasing could someone besides Nightblood or Vasher.
Lavis grain is confirmed to be like corn, so Sapphire wine is a grain alcohol. With types of sweeteners, one would hope. Some whisky can be made from corn, since malted barley would only be possible in Shinovar or maybe Thaylenah, since both places has access to grains that produce gluten breads (to get fluffy white bread).
After the power of and/or Yelig-nar itself consumed Aesudan, who retrieved the crystal that she swallowed? Or does Odium have to do something to any old plane crystal to infuse it with Yelig-nar’s essence? It would be nice to have some additional knowledge on how the mechanics of Yelig-nar transferring its power from one vessel to the next. I think that only one vessel at a time can house Yelig-nar’s power. Had Aesudan note been consumed by the power, I believe Amaram would not have been able to ingest the crystal. No text to support my theory, but that is what I believe.
Alice said “Many of us—though certainly not all—feel a certain sense of having failed to live up to what our parents hoped for us.” I wonder if “many of us” is still accurate in today’s society. Two or three generations ago, I would agree. But today, I wonder how many young people do not care whether they lived up to what their parent(s) hoped for them. If they do not care, then there would not be a feeling of failure.
Alice and Lyndsey. I might be wrong, but I thought that Azure knows that Vasher was the one who taught Adolin the kata. I think I recall her saying that Adolin should tell Vasher (if he sees him again) that Azure is looking for him (when Azure stays on the Honorspren boat.
As if we needed any more evidence that Shallan is not a soldier or survivalist. Her emergency snack is jam; not something like rations. I am not criticizing Shallan for using jam as her emergency snack. It is a function of who she is. She is not a soldier, but a young Brightlady trying to adjust to the end of the world. I also think that her jar of jam has to do with the differences between men and women’s food in Vorin culture. Men eat spicy food whereas women eat bland food such as jam.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@9 – hopefully some of this is addressed from the in-world fallout of Oathbringer’s release. Adolin has already had hints of needing to come to terms with some of this.
As for me, I find myself torn on if Evi was right to continue to ‘protect’ Dalinar. That said, it’s clear she mainly did it for her children. Of course, if Dalinar had NOT changed, the results would be even worse.
Poor rock always getting his bottom smacked
@9 I think that something gets overlooked in young Renarin’s relationship with Dalinar, brought to light in the “and I miss her too” comment. So far as the Alethi quality are concerned, Evi Kholin passed on her shardplate and disappeared from the world with hardly a ripple. Dalinar has been- loudly, embarrassingly, ceaselessly, with much spectacle that cannot be politely ignored for all they try to- communicating to the entire planet (or at least the Alethi sphere of influence, which is much the same thing) that Evi Kholin dying was the worst thing that has ever happened in modern Rosharan history. This is something that Renarin agrees with but is unable to express himself or receive anything better than brief semi-benign pity and an contempt if he could.
That father is going to be loved by his son, pretty much no matter what.
You know, this talk about the Kholin brother’s affinity to be…well empathetic and more showing with their emotions pretty much makes me realize that being empathic is seen as a no no in Alekthar society. The women have to be all smiles with a dagger underneath their skirts. The men all have to be tough, and stern with no real showing of emotions, unless its killing, even talking about the Thrill is considered a private matter no men should speak outside of. Even Larain has this mind set, where he does everything with a surgeon precision, telling Kaladin he has to grow callouses in order to be a surgeon. the only characters who don’t are Kal’s mom..and Evi; two characters who are stated to be from outside of Alekthar society and culture. Both of them encouraged their sons to be more open with themselves, to be quick witted, but not stern. I’m sure Brandon did this contrast on purpose, to show that the Alekthar society and culture is actaullly very toxic, but it really just clicked that both Evi and Kal’s mom wanted their children to be proud of their fathers, but to not really end up like them. Kal’s mom is the oene who showed pride when it’s revealed that he’s a knight radiant, after all. that Kal finally found something that HE wanted to be, not his father. Now Adolin needs to find that same spark, as does Renarain.
A couple of things about this quote. First, is shows that Hessi isn’t one of the Heralds because a Herald wouldn’t refer to humans as Voidbringers. Seconds, this is the first hint that humans ARE the original Voidbringers since Parsh would not need to swallow a gemstone in order to allow Yelig-nar access (since they have one naturally).
What would the odds be that Khriss is hessi? heck, take out the k and r and ass a e and you have “Hessi” this sounds more like her style, and we know that for some strange reason that every world hopper that comes to Roshar takes up a alias, even vasher…who hates the sneaking around stuff.
Whoa that was a lot of chapters for this week! Not that I’m really sad about that. I love the visual of the three doing the kata together. Something familiar in a very strange place. I think Shallan’s dancing quip comes because she actually feels a little left out, since she hasn’t had a lot of sword practice yet.
The Dalinar flashback… I feel so conflicted. It’s a beautiful scene with Renarin and his dad. But at the same time, Dalinar can hardly remember his name right now. There are serious issues there that need addressing. Did the change Dalinar have because of his nightwatcher trip really just make it all better? It seems like life is more complicated than that. But it’s a book…
Poor Kaladin, stuck in such a dark place again. Talking about it seems to help him though; I hope he realizes that. Also, Shallan getting Stormlight to help her keep up. Despite all her adventures so far she hasn’t had to walk/train like the rest of the group has.
@9, Braid_Tug
You say handwavy, but I imagine that we’re going to see the repercutions throughout the rest of the books, at the very least RoW. I mean that’s part of his journey – explaining what really happened, in particular to his sons.
@17, RogerPavelle
That makes me think that she’s a Herald even more. Only they would now the original Voidbringers were human and would need to swallow the gemstones.
@19, joyspren
It helped a lot, but even now this realization is part of his journey. I wouldn’t say it made anything better. It took the death of Galivar to do that as well. To me, these moments are just signs that Dalinar wasn’t beyond redemption. Small moments when he knew he didn’t “deserve” what he had – a family that loved him. It’s just unfortunate that his sons had to bear the cost of that.
@18 Do they all take up aliases or do their names just translate differently through connection.
@21 Well that I don’t know, you had Thinker Blunt and Grump apparently calling themselves different names, that the fisherman decided to just give them nicknames, and that “Grump’s” usual quirk with saying “Kolo” was translated into English, but he does speak Duladen. I’m not sure what Zahel is a word for, and Azure sounds like she was just kind of trolling with that particular name, but they do have their colorful sayings that confuss everyone. and I just remember Felt. but who knows with him, he wasn’t even BEING subtle that he was from another world. I just felt it seemed odd that on Roshar, they seem to use different names, and we know Nazh and Khriss have to be around, seeing that he apparently got Shallan’s journal from underneath the ocean.
Re: OP
I have two comments on this paragraph:
A: “Boiling pools of blood” is nasty enough as an image associated with anger. The thought that the actual spren are great big things who drool boiling pools of blood… Yikes. This reminds me of the bit in the “extra scene” with Jasnah, where they hear what sounds like a large nasty beastie near them; when Ivory tells her it’s a painspren and they need to leave now, she objects that painspren are harmless. Ivory responds, “On your side, harmless. Here, harmmore. Very harmmore.” Sounds like angerspren are also harmmore!
First, once I heard about the “blood” being saliva, my mental image – right or wrong – is that the blood appears to be “boiling” because of the new saliva dripping into it. In the physical realm you don’t see the falling saliva, only the pool, so as new drips come in it would look like it was boiling. And it’s “blood” because it’s red in color, but still actually saliva. Or whatever spren saliva is.
Second, thanks to those who posted the link to the extra chapter last week and this week. Having read it – and the note that the specifics aren’t cannon, but some of the workings of shadesmar are – my thought is that Ivory was “wrong” (read Brandon changed his mind) about the pain spren being harm more because I believe we saw pain spren in the first chapter in Shadesmar and they were tiny, finger-sized people. Not exactly dangerous. I think the anger spren took the role of being “harmmore”.
@11 Braid Tug -As the musespren mentioned, I think Azure confirms that she is indeed hunting Vasher a couple chapters from now.
@12 Andrew- My understanding is that, yes, only one can link to Yelig-nar at a time. Since the parsh now control Kholinar I think it would have been easy to retrieve the gemstone that the queen swallowed and have a fused fly it down to Thaylen City where Amaram got to swallow it. But… maybe it doesn’t have to be the same gemstone, just A gemstone. Because, doesn’t Rock break the gemstone in Amaram? So Yelig-nar must have a way to infuse into a new gemstone.
@18 Steven- I love the idea that Khriss is Hessi! That would be awesome.
Children of alcoholic parents can still become desperate for their love and approval. I can see both of the Kholen boys wanting and needing Dalinar’s love and approval.
@11. @23: If Nightblood was previously in the hands of a “criminal” that could explain how Nale got his hands on it. Of course, if that’s the case, then that criminal is likely dead already, and Azure’s search is over, even if she doesn’t know it yet. If only she had gone with Adolin & co., she could have been reunited with Nightblood much sooner!
I was originally a believer that Honor’s Perpendicularity was the highstorm. I think it being described as random suggests that might be wrong, but it does function similarly to a perpendicularity. As the Stormfather describes it,
Perhaps it is appears other places randomly when the highstorm is not present, or maybe it is something separate. One thing I’m unclear on is that the Stormfather says the three realms are connected, but when they see a highstorm in the cognitive realm it doesn’t seem to have any effect on them, except maybe making Pattern and Syl a bit stronger.
Maybe it’s just the reading that Michael Kramer gives, but I think Adolin’s “sir” in response to Dalinar roaring “What?” showed that he does have some resentment. It also mentions him jutting out his chin, which I think adds to that impression.
I don’t think we’re supposed to like Dalinar at this point or forgive him. I think the point is that we’re seeing how broken he is and he’s starting to realize that he can’t do anything to fix it.
In regards to Dalinar’s relationship with his sons, we must also consider the outside influences. Evi imprinted on them love and respect for Dalinar, and since she was closest to him she would know, right? Then everyone else in their lives universally speak of him in the most glowing of terms. The scene with Ren both saddens and angers me, yet I also feel resigned. Gut punches from hell.
@18
Ohh i never thought about Khriss being Hessi, i would absolutely love that. Id hat Hessi to be a herald, because you cant actually trust anything they say and i dont see a reason for them to write a book
Curiously enough, I don’t remember Vasher performing any katas in Warbreaker or being any kind of martial artist. He was a capable scrapper, who was brilliant and inventive in using Awakening to bolster his combat ability and had Nightblood to fall back on. He must have become an extraordinary fighter at some later point and it doesn’t quite fit that he would have been the one to teach such a formalized excercise to Azure/Vivenna.
I would also say that it is unclear whether Yelig-Nar could inhabit a singer gem-heart. It is more than a Fused and also, perhaps, needs the original personality not to be completely gone. So, this quote of Hessi’s might not provide any insight on whom she or her sources considered to be Voidbringers. I can’t help but wonder about Glys’s ability to hide _inside_ Renarin’s body, unlike all the other Nahel spren we have seen so far and if he may have needed a similar “housing”. Then, there is the question of how they ensure that the gem stays in the person. Or is bonding Yelig-Nar a strictly short-term thing, which is 100% fatal? You’d think that they’d run out of volonteers at some point.
I loved this short glimpse into Adolin’s mind, that shows that things don’t just roll off him, he is just as overwhelmed as everybody else. I do think that he needed to have a stronger reaction to the fall of Kholinar and the loss of Alethkar, though. But maybe he is still too numb. Also, like father, like son – Dalinar also centers himself by doing something physical when he is confused. We also see at least part of the reason why Adolin’s and Maya’s relationship is special – he has always spoken to her a lot, like one would to a person and now that they are in the Cognitive, it probably has even more of an impact.
I wonder who decided that Dalinar’s sons and particularly Renarin would join the expedition to meet the Parshendi? Or was it initially a chasmfiend hunt? Anyway, doesn’t seem like something Dalinar himself would have come up with. Seems rather odd that Gavilar would have needed to dole out pocket money to Renarin and that it was only enough for a small bottle. Wouldn’t a Highprince’s son have had a generous allowance? I mean, the administrative staff would have taken care of it even if the father himself couldn’t have been bothered.
Evi’s glowing presentation of Dalinar to her sons… hm… It is a very complex issue. On the one hand, it is similar to showing people “their better self” which can make them aspire to actually reach that state. It can work even iRL and is somewhat similar to what Shallan does with the help of magic. OTOH, more often than not it doesn’t and only sets up kids for more heart-ache. I imagine that Evi wanted to protect young Renarin’s feelings too and give him an explanation for why his father _had_ to stay away from the capital and from him.
And, of course, it doesn’t help that the rest of Kholins hero-worshipped Dalinar. Even Gavilar basically designated Dalinar as his heir as a Bondsmith and put him on the way to Radiancy with his dying breath. And it is very strongly suggested in his missve immediately pre-Second Rathalas that Dalinar was the only member of his family in whom the king intended to confide his discoveries. So, would Evi criticizing her husband to her kids have done any good? I somehow doubt it.
Braid_Tug @9:
Nice to see you in these discussions again! Yea, this scene is kinda the real beginning of a father-son relationship between Dalinar and Renarin and it is not auspicious that it happens over a bottle of booze. It also explains so much about Renarin’s stubborn determination _not_ to follow his strengths in WoK and WoR! Poor kid. He had to wait so long for his father’s love and was understandably terrified of losing it if he ever left Dalinar’s orbit. I do think that Adolin idolizing their father is realistic, as basically everybody in his family does so as well, and they are giants among men and women. And, of course, attributing it to tragedy and terrible grief over their mother’s assassination contributed to his rose-colored view.
OMG, Alice! The thought that all 3 were trained by the same sword master never occurred to me! It is true though, their Kata must have flowed smoothly between all three because of the familiarity!
I have always felt so sorry for Renarin, he loves his father so much and never seems to fit in to the Alethi society. Evi was one strong woman!
@29 From what I remember with warbreaker, Vasher wasn’t a sword master, Arsteel and Denth were. Vasher was always more of a brawler, but maybe, after the events of warbreaker, he decided to get good at it, he is long lived after all. We just don’t know the time frame of warbreaker.
Also about Yelig-nar, Odium does say that Elokhar’s wife was not able to contain it, and that Amaran should be careful. So its implied that it’s not 100 percent fatal, why kill off useful minons that cannot come back?
From a literary standpoint. I like the parallels between the Kholin family and the Davar family. They both have a messed up patriarch. They both have a thing about “lies becoming true” etc. Seriously, someone could dedicate a whole blog post on the the parallels between them, the similarities and differences, etc
I feel like something changed within Adolin’s sword during his conversation with her. He asks her what she thinks about all this, and confides his feelings to her. After that she doesn’t follow him up from the shore, like it seems she should have. I feel like his face to face invitation to her to think and his pouring some of his innermost thoughts into her actually may have awakened something in her.
I have a loose theory that this moment between Renarin and Dalinar is what planted the seed for Dalinar seeking the Nightwatcher. That maybe Renarin had already begun bonding Glys at this point. Either way, I feel this brief but poignant moment was a big turning point for Dalinar and I love that shy, fearful Renarin was the one he shared it with.
Alice, I disagree with you about Honor’s Perpendicularity – IMHO, it is quite clear that it travels with the highstorms, together with the Stormfather, or, more precisely, weather systems that start as the highstorms in the East. After all, you can charge the gems everywhere and to the same degree during those weather phenomena, and stormlight comes exclusively from it. The storms themselves are not completely predictable to humans and the exact position of Perpendicularity may vary, I imagine, with the only condition being that the whole continent is equally exposed to stormlight. It is also dangerous because it would depose you in the heart of a highstorm, unless you use it in the far West. And let’s not forget that it would also move very quickly, so catching it would be very difficult.
Nightheron @1:
Looks like you caught a RL term that slipped through, like “second” or “allergy”. Of course, maybe they just have some native Rosharan thing that looks similar enough to get the name? Like “(axe)hound”? Or the “berries” that the jams are made from? Or, maybe, grapes do get transported across the continent from Shinovar packed in ice.
Steven Hedge@10:
To be fair, non-fighter nobles can also be administrators. Sebarial is not a fighter, yet successful as a highprince. But after OB, it is completely understandable that Renarin just wants to stay with his father, who finally, finally, cares about him.
I really like the idea of Khriss or another long-lived worldhopper being Hessi, which would explain why they had access to the sources that Jasnah didn’t have.
@31 When Brandon was asked about the seeming discrepancy with Vasher’s swordsmanship, he said:
This is a week I wished I had commented at the time when it was published, but I chose not to. I thought better late than never to catch up with the chapters I enjoyed the most.
I loved the fact Brandon chose to gave us this perspective on Adolin’s inner thoughts because, on the outside, he is so dependable, reliable, and steady, no one could even begin to guess what he may be thinking. Or they think he has no thoughts. Like a robot. Other in-world characters and even readers often think the world from Adolin’s perpective is made of rainbows and flying unicorns: in other words, impressions often are Adolin bathes within perfection, living a perfect life into a perfect world pandering to him specifically.
Renarin believes Adolin is perfection reincarnated and nothing ever affects him. Dalinar believes Adolin is steady, unbreakable, and can punch through anything because he is so perfect, he has no negative emotional responses to events. He is not weak like Dalinar thinks of himself. Shallan and Kaladin are not seeing much more of Adolin though they arguably are the only two characters to have seen glimpses not all is perfect. Shallan caught on Adolin’s non-verbal reactions and was able to furet out he fears he’d disappoint his father. Kaladin caught on Adolin’s non-verbal negative reaction towards nearing Rathalas which got Adolin to speak of his mother.
Adolin’s closed family members haven’t gotten anywhere near where Shallan and Kaladin have gotten, so far, and it wasn’t… very far.
This chapter thus starts to break those self-made perceptions by teaching all a very valuable lesson: it isn’t because someone appears cheery, smiling, perfect, well-adapted, and confident they actually *feel* that way all the time. It also doesn’t mean they never faced issues, it often means they refused to wallow into self-pity. Like Adolin here. Who refuses to pity himself and tries, yet again, to find something to do to avoid thinking for too long. In this case, it was the kata.
Still, it made me sad to read how little Adolin thnks of himself. A few weeks ago, I mentioned how soldering and military leadership perhaps weren’t Adolin’s greatest cups of tea and he was doing it out of obligation more than anything else. This chapter tells us some more: Adolin is not viewing himself as a general nor even a soldier. He thinks of himself as a duelist, which is a useless occupation, and as a murderer, protected by his high status. After this bout, even Renarin seems to have a more positive opinion of himself since Renarin, at least, agrees he has the smarts to be a scholar, he’s just messed up with choosing a path he believes will not make his father love him.
And yeah, Adolin sees his own inadequacies through the lenses of the hero-worshiping complex he has with his father. He is obsessed with the notion of the “true soldier” (he also sed the term to speak of how he had, once, looked up to Amaram) and keeps on finding reasons why he isn’t one. This week, something as benign as waking up with an aching back after sleeping on the hard floor is enough for Adolin to start depreciating himself. He is also obsessed with Dalinar. Dalinar this, Dalinar that, Dalinar this great amazing man, Dalinar the greatest man to have ever lived and then there is *him*, the son who can’t sleep one night in the wild without not feeling properly rested.
As a reader who loves Adolin’s character, it hurts so badly to see him praise and view Dalinar within this God-like vision of his. At his age, he should have indeed grown out of his hero-worshiping complex, he should have a more balanced perspective on his father, but the fact he doesn’t tells us a lot about his personality and his past… My thoughts are Adolin is a grown man who still views his father as he once did as a child. In other words, Adolin’s views of his father have not evolved since… Evi died. Like Adolin’s mind was stuck in time and each time he thinks of Dalinar, it is the 12 years old him who is speaking because 23 years old Adolin should not be so hook up on the “my daddy is the greatest” mindset. Isn’t what teenage rebellion years are for? Well, looks like someone here skipped this phase and might be having it now. Or may have it in RoW. We’ll see.
@9: I was relieved when I read your post. It took a huge weight out of my shoulder to find out there were other readers out there who weren’t pitying Dalinar, who weren’t softening to him and who were downright angry at him for how he has mistreated his sons.
This being said, I do not think Brandon’s writing of Dalinar’s relationship with his sons is handwavy. Perhaps because I watched too many real-life drama featuring various abusive relationships, but the patterns he wrote into the Dalinar/Adolin and the Dalinar/Renarin relationships are ones I have seen in other pieces of fiction. On fiction based on reality. I know 99% of the readers disagree Dalinar ever was an abusive father: Tumblr still refers to him as the “dadlinar” out of respect for his fathering skills which hurts my eyes each time I see it. I have unfortunately seen too many authors reproduce similar relationship patterns within series meant to depict abusive relationships not to recognize them here.
In other words, being madly in love with your abuser (even if he is a parent), not being able to see the abuse is a common trait many victims share. Even worst, most victims do not think of themselves as… victims, they think the bad treatment they received we deserved due to their own inadequacies which is exactly what we read in this chapter. Many victims are eager to please and want to be loved while not wanting to make waves, to disrupt.
Adolin feels inadequate next to his father. He blindly loves him and, even though he has plenty of examples of Dalinar being imperfect, mean even, he seems unable to register those elements as mattering when comes the time to define what Dalinar means to him. He pities his father instead and only sees what he has internalized as the reason why Dalinar suffers: Evi died. This is a pain Adolin understands: he misses Evi too and is still unable to think of Rathalas without going all weird on everyone around.
The emotional manipulation Dalinar inadvertently does is also palpable. He gave this boy praises only when he managed to behave exactly like he wanted him too and criticize every behavior which differs. He behaved like a decent father for years, in Jah Keved, but as Adolin came into teenage years he no longer took care of him, worst he spoke to him only to criticize. The Jah Kevek period, this was the honey-moon all relationships have, the good period Adolin hangs onto believing if he is a good enough boy, his father will be this man, again. Or worst he believes he can fix his father which results in a situation where Adolin thinks he ought to die for Dalinar because Dalinar is the one he needs to protect.
All this to say, I do not think it was handwavy, but I do think Brandon is depicting a rather complex father/son relationship where the sons seem not to be able to realize how bad they got it in large part because their father is thought so highly of. How does a kid start to openly criticize Alethkar’s most acclaimed hero? He doesn’t. He internalizes his father is this great man and if his father treats him poorly, then he must be to blame. Like Renarin for failing at being a soldier. Like Adolin for not quite being *enough* to perfectly emulate Dalinar which is exactly what we are reading in one of this week’s chapters.
In the end, I think it will take a massive shock for Adolin to remove his rose-teinted googles, but I am unsure Brandon is going to be willing to go there.
Hey Gepeto,
thank you for your post, I enjoyed reading this.
I couldn’t agree more, and since that rarely happens, I felt the need to point it out!
I’ not 100% comfortable with calling him that, but that is me trying to use the 100% appropriate term. (This is where I wave my autism flag around. I’m not trying to be apologetic towards Dalinar, I agree that his relationship to his children was anything but healthy, but I chafe at the “abusive”):
APA describes psychological abuse as “nonaccidental verbal or symbolic acts by a child’s parent or caregiver that result, or have reasonable potential to result, in significant psychological harm to the child.”
What gives me pause is the “nonaccidental“. Dalinar is a semi-functional (at best) Thrill addict/alcoholic through his sons’ childhood. Is he stable/sane enough to qualify as abusive?
The end result will be the same, I don’t disagree on that at all.
Tumblr still refers to him as the “dadlinar” out of respect for his fathering skills which hurts my eyes each time I see it.
You must have died inside a little at typing it, I can empathize.
I think that Brandon’s decision to introduce Dalinar as a man of high integrity was brilliant. People loved him and completley trusted him, and then he took that away over the course of the consecutive books by revealing that he had been a monster at some point. Narratively, that’s incredibly powerful.
However, people are generally prone to defend any opinion they have once it’s formed. This comic/infographic/whatever goes to great length as to why: https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe
Perhaps you’d consider it relevant.
Here’s a point where Adolin is suffering consequences – even if those are “just” affecting his self-perception. My point exactly. ;)
I confess that I am guilty to all this. I pity him, I’m (already) softened towards him, and I am not angry at him. But that is because I understand why he acted the way he did.
Unlike people like Sadeas and Amaram, Dalinar knows he messed up. He’s trying (belatedly, but he’s trying) to make amends, and the amount of slack he cuts himself is in the net negative.
I think there’s no need to be angry at Dalinar, he will be harder on himself than any of us ever could.
Exactly, and any sort of proper teenage rebellion that you need to detach yourself from that little kid’s idea that your parents are flawless will also be strangled in the root. Adolin always believed in Dalinar, more than the man himself (see Words of Radiance, where Dalinar is trying to retire over going crazy.), the idea that his father might not have been totally rested after a night in the wilderness and would just have been strong-manning it (the exact same way Adolin is) doesn’t even occur to him.
Why shouldn’t he? He certainly hasn’t spared his characters anything else. o:)
Thanks! I honestly did not know if anyone would get to read it since it was posted so long after the thread started.
Well, we were bound to agree on something at some point. I noticed how given character traits are more universally understood than others. For instance, no one second-guesses Kaladin’s depression, his mood swings get a lot of coverage both from the author and the readers. Adolin’s inner issues, however, tend to be under-estimated. The character responds to the commonly known trope of “jock” or “prince charming” which results in most to hand-wave all signs things may not be as perfect as they appear. His refusal to be vulnerable, to appear vulnerable also causes in-world characters not to pay any attention to him.
In other words, for a character to have issues, those issues have to be obvious, standard, and the character must wallow in self-pity or appear vulnerable. Adolin doesn’t respond to this mould, though he fits into another one, a less common one, but a hard to pinpoint one given he hasn’t gotten a lot of focus, yet.
I used 99% as a figurative term: the number wasn’t based on any macroscopic scientific survey in the fandom. It was based on my own personal experience discussing this topic with other readers: in most cases, readers disagreed with my claim and most seemed uncomfortable with the term “abusive” being used.
Part of the discomfort is, for most people, the term “abusive” serves to depict far worst behavior than the one Dalinar exhibits. It depicts physically abusive relationships, murderous behavior (like Lin Davar) or intentionally emotionally manipulative individuals whereas, and I do agree, Dalinar here isn’t harming his sons on purpose. His intent is not to hurt them, but his intent also isn’t to protect them. He isn’t trying to shelter them, but he did purposefully ignore Renarin for years because he became drunk. Hence, there is an amount of purpose within Dalinar’s actions though he wasn’t aiming for a given result. He was just… IMHO a terribly selfish man who cared about no one but Gavilar and himself.
Also, another interesting clue is how Dalinar does, internally, realize he is being dismissive of Adolin and yet, he keeps on doing it. A part of him knows he is behaving wrongly, but he keeps on doing it because he refuses to deal with the alternative. *That* rang some bells in me because, yet again, I have seen it too within real-life fictions: the abuser who does realize, up to a given point, his behavior is the wrong one but keeps on doing it.
Except, as I mentioned above, Dalinar did purposefully ignore Renarin’s existence for years prior to being drunk. If the fact he was a Thrill-addict is enough to call his behavior “accidental”, then what do we make of his seemingly healthy relationship with Adolin during the very same years? Dalinar might have been a Thrill-addict waiting for his next fix, he was functional enough to behave like a human being outside the battlefield, so long as he knew the next battle wasn’t too long in the waiting. Hence, how he treated Renarin is on him, totally on him.
I die every time I see readers praise Dalinar’s fathering skills or start to depict the Dalinar/Adolin relationship as such a great, balanced, and healthy one. After OB, I would argue most readers, while retaining a highly positive opinion of Dalinar, will, at the very least, agree he wasn’t a great father. If most aren’t willing to call him “abusive”, as I do, they still aren’t praising him, but there are those who still do. And yeah, I figuratively die inside each time I read those.
Oh and I agree. I have essentially been saying something very similar, at some point. The fact Brandon chose to present Dalinar as a positive role-model, early one, the fact he spent two books building up this character before he told us the grim truth did create a powerful narrative where readers were able to relate, to pity, and to sympathize with a character they wouldn’t have liked, had the story been told differently.
The knowledge Dalinar becomes a better person is enough for most readers not be angry at him and to understand him.
That was a great link! The house metaphor, I thought, was quite apt. Readers built their perception of Dalinar’s character like a sturdy, reliable house, but when new information depicts a different tale and spoke of a different man, they reject the information. However since I, as a reader, never felt strongly about Dalinar, always felt the man was too rigid, too unloving, and not as great as a father as readers took him out to be (that was prior to OB’s release), I took the information in OB as the confirmation of what I had once suspected. Hence, I am drawing a rather different portrayal of the character or, to stick with the metaphor, I have built a much different house, one where Dalinar isn’t as great of a man as the first two books told us too because, even then, he rubbed me off the wrong way.
I had similar experience with other readers. For instance, some readers argue Dalinar is a compassionate man who is willing to sacrifice himself for Roshar. I have argued Dalinar viewed people as tools he can use and even if he does love his son, he still thinks of him as a tool more than anything else. A WoB confirmed this last one, word for word, but other readers struggle to accept Dalinar might be a goal-oriented person and might be self-centered even when he is trying not to be.
Yeah. I will agree those are consequences of murdering Sadeas and it does lead to Adolin refusing the kingship. I guess part of my issue is I think refusing the kingship was the right decision for Adolin. He did not lose anything he cared for by murdering Sadeas unless he ends up losing something with respect to his relationship with Dalinar, but this story hasn’t been told yet.
I understand why he acts this way, but I disagree with his actions. I am a parent and seeing another parent not prioritize his own children, believing his own personal issues matter more irks me in a very negative manner. Kids have to come first and Dalinar never made his kiddies come first. His pain comes first, but in my mind, it shouldn’t. That’s where I suffer from a strong disconnect with Dalinar’s character: all this focus on his personal pain when my brain is screaming the pain he is causing others is so much greater!
This is probably true, but as I mentioned in my previous post, I wished the harm Dalinar did to others had been given a stronger focus. It is one thing to deal with your own guilty conscience, it usually is another thing entirely to make others accept you have once been this man. This is the part of the story I find we are currently missing.
Exactly. It doesn’t occur to Adolin Dalinar too wouldn’ have felt rested after a bad night on a hard floor. It doesn’t occur to Adolin Dalinar’s back too would have hurt nor does it occur to Adolin the reason he thinks Dalinar would not be hurting is that Dalinar would do exactly as Adolin is doing here: power through it.
I thought this was one of the biggest clues on how Adolin views on his father haven’t followed his psychological age. It is incredibly childish of him to think his great father is so great he can sleep on a hard floor without feeling any discomfort. I mean, naive children think this way. They think their parents are perfect. It made me think of how I had to recently explain to my daughter I have fears too. She thought I was fearless and she was a scare-crow, so I took the time to explain how, when I was her age, I was scared the house would set on fire too, but I had grown out of this fear. My kid, aged 9, didn’t have the perspective to realize adults too have fears, they just aren’t showing them, most of the time.
In this scene, Adolin almost talks like my 9 years old daughter, but he is 23. That’s why I am thinking part of his emotional growth, the part which comes to have a realistic take on his parents, died when Evi died and Dalinar became drunk. Like Adolin went from 12 to needing becoming an adult (to take care of his father, of Renarin, and of himself), but his psyche never caught up, it got stuck in those Jah Keved years, hence he hero-worships his father through his adult years and has this completely unrealistic view of him.
Because it is never clear how much more of Adolin we will get into any SA book ;-) I do know we *are* getting some Adolin in RoW, but how much and how deep Brandon is going to be willing to dig remains a RAFO.
@manavortex. Your link reminds me of this video here.
Gepeto:
Better late than never! Anyway, while I somewhat agree with you, I feel compelled to point out that men admiring and wanting to emulate their fathers, as well as feeling that they are falling short is by no means uncommon. Teenage rebellion doesn’t affect everybody equally and in the same way. Some don’t even really experience it. And those who constantly try to escape their fathers shadows throughout their lives are, in a way, often even more strongly defined and limited by their fathers, because they always try to do the opposite instead of figuring out what is best for them.
Desire to protect/save a parent, even at the risk to their own lives is also not uncommon for adult children and as far as I am aware is normally presented as laudable in iRL cultures. I wouldn’t say that either is unhealthy by itself, though Adolin’s extreme internal self-denigration versus his idealized vision of Dalinar certainly is.
You are right that there was for Adolin the charmed Jah-Keved period – and possible also earlier years he partly spent in his father’s company and that he wanted to somehow bring that man back throughout the troubled years after Evi’s death. But also, Dalinar did become a good father again (or in Renarin’s case for the first time) after he decided to visit to the Nightwatcher.
It is, of course, ironic that Dalinar ruminated to himself in the present day PoVs and, IIRC even in the pre- Second-Rathalas flashback that he himself had never been a “proper soldier”, that he just skipped it all by jumping from a bloodthirtsy berserker to a general.
And I do very much feel that Oathbringer the book is set up as a Chekov’s gun for Dalinar’s relationship with his eldest son.
@41: While admiring a parent and having him as a role-model is certainly not uncommon, I do think, as with it usually the case for most things, there is an element of balance required. For instance, drinking a few glasses of wine per week is not a big deal. However, being incapable of not drinking glasses of wine every day and requiring said wine to deal with the emotional roller-coaster of real-life might be one.
Hence, in Adolin’s case, it isn’t the fact he hero-worships his father nor the fact he admires him nor the fact he might have potentially skipped his teenage rebellion years which made me react and call the relationship unhealthy, it is how he has this unrealistic views of his father and how he depreciates himself for failing to meet impossible standards. In other words, it would be OK for Adolin to want to emulate the man his father currently is, to emulate the man who has “changed”, to emulate the man who became a “better” person. It would be OK for him to yearn to learn a life lesson out of his father’s struggles, admiring him for his successes while retaining a decent set of expectations for himself. Berating himself because he couldn’t sleep well on the ground while firmly beliving mighty Dalinar wouldn’t have struggles testifies of how unhealthy Adolin’s views of his father are. Dalinar is not just his role-model, the man basically is, to his eyes, an object of pure perfection Adolin can never match. The “I can’t sleep on the hard ground” bout is plain stupid, even Kaladin is not so hard on himself. At the very least, he blames himself for real tragic events, not for his back failing not to hurt after a bad night…
Moreover, Adolin has absolutely not internalized the truth about Dalinar’s past despite having had ample examples and time to do so. An example would how Dalinar treated Renarin. Adolin loves Renarin. He is close to his brother. How is it he still believes his father is a rainbow shining angel given how he has mistreated Renarin, forbidden love, care, and attention to him? How come this knowledge hasn’t settled with Adolin? Did Adolin actually agree Renarin deserved being ignored because he couldn’t learn how to fight? This would clash with Adolin’s characterization so far. How can his views of his father remain so pure when he saw the man being a drunk, when he was on the ending end of his negative critics, and when he witnessed what Dalinar’s behavior did to Renarin. If he won’t acknowledge the impact Dalinar had on him, then he should, at the very least, have acknowledged it with Renarin.
But he doesn’t. Hence while the hero-worshiping behavior is not strictly negative nor always unhealthy, I do think the example at hand most certainly is.
I do not know about all cultures, but I can say, from my personal’s perspective, I would NEVER want my children to sacrifice themselves for me. The mere idea an old parent’s life might take precedence over his/her child just hurts my personal set of beliefs. I dunno if it is cultural or not, but for me, the child who believes the father’s life is more important than his own is another sign of an unhealthy relationship. At the very least, the father should be appalled at it and disagree with it. In my mind, it is just plain wrong, but I can agree other readers have a different set of beliefs which may trigger a different reaction. Or they may even find it laudable, as you say.
Dalinar does entirely not disagree his life matters more than Adolin’s and has readily accepted his son may die for him.
Jah Keved definitely is the version of Dalinar Adolin is hanging up to, as seen through his childish eyes. Before though, he had no memories: he couldn’t recognize his father at the age of 4. What bothers me is how Adolin’s views of his father seem not to have changed despite him having grown much older. While not all people will experience teenage rebellion years, all people do experience a moment where they move out of the “my daddy is the greatest” mindset to start viewing his parents are real human beings with flaws. This process often forms the core of the teenage years, the years where kids reject what their parents stand for in order to build it up for themselves, sometimes coming back to what their parents told them in the first place. Rebellion does not equate to rejecting your parents nor does it always ends badly, but there needs to have a moment where you ask yourself those questions. Who do you want to be?
Adolin is starting to ask himself those questions now. He has rejected one element from his father’s teachings, he has agreed his father was wrong about Sadeas, and he would kill him again, shall the same event happen again. So no matter how we name this phase of life, Adolin is currently going through *something*.
I do agree Dalinar’s views of himself clashes with Adolin’s. It made me wonder why hasn’t Dalinar taken the time to sit down with Adolin to give him a better portrayal of himself? Even without his memories, Dalinar knew he wasn’t this glorified hero Adolin kept on praising, so why did Dalinar allow it? Why didn’t he think it was important his own son had a more realistic view of soldering? Does he know his son so little he never noticed?
Ah, I want this particular Chekov’s gun to fire! My personal take is the Dalinar/Adolin relationship will first need to be destroyed before it can be rebuilt on a stronger foundation and since I find similar-like stories super interesting, well, I really want to read this one.