Hey, y’all! It’s Thursday up in here, and you know what that means: Oathbringer Reread Time! This week we’re twenty-three years in the past, as Dalinar deals with addictions, relationships, fatherhood, and monstrousness.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. This week contains no Cosmere spoilers, but if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar
WHERE: Kholinar
WHEN: 1150 (Twenty-three years ago)
The chapter begins with Dalinar in a bar, enjoying some firemoss. When a wrestling match breaks out, he and his former elites place bets—but one of the combatants can’t make it. Dalinar offers to fight the reigning champion, but the man refuses, afraid for his own well-being. Dalinar’s brother-in-law arrives with happy news to break up the tension—Evi is in labor!
Dalinar arrives back home to find his first-born son healthy and his wife exhausted but well. He names the child Adolin, “born unto light.” As he’s leaving, Gavilar pulls him aside and tells him that he needs him to go back out on campaign to quell some uprisings. Not at the Rift—not yet, anyway.
The Singing Storm
Title: Born Unto Light
“Adoda.” Light. He glanced toward Evi, who nodded in agreement.
“Without a suffix, my lord? Adodan? Adodal?”
“Lin,” Dalinar whispered. Born unto. “Adolin.”
A: And now we know what the name means. I wonder if knowing the meaning of your name makes you more likely to reflect that meaning in your personality. Despite his occasional dark moments, the name really seems to fit.
L: Just popping in here to say how much I LOVE the meaning behind his name. In a world in which Light holds such significance, this name may be particularly portentous.
Heralds
Jezrien (King, Protecting/Leading, Windrunners)
A: I… really don’t have anything to suggest here. If Adolin had been made king at the end of the book, I’d call Jezrien “foreshadowing,” but that doesn’t work. And he’s not a Windrunner, nor likely to be. So… Dalinar as protector? I guess?
L: Jezrien is mentioned in here, and there’s quite a lot about what it means to be a king in regards to Gavilar’s conversation with Dalinar towards the end.
A: That works.
Icon
Kholin Glyphpair Inverse, meaning that this is one of Dalinar’s flashbacks.
Stories & Songs
“Excellent,” Dalinar said. “What? You worried about injuring your highprince? I promise you clemency for anything done to me.”
“Hurting you?” the man said. “Storms, that’s not what I’m afraid of.”
L: I love how Dalinar’s reputation precedes him.
He’d agreed to wear a crown after much debate—Sunmaker hadn’t worn one, and the histories said Jezerezeh’Elin refused them as well.
L: Interesting little tidbit about Jezrien here!
“Do you ever wonder about the time when this kingdom was truly great, Dalinar?” Gavilar asked. “When people looked to the Alethi. When kings sought their advice. When we were … Radiant.”
“Traitors,” Dalinar said.
“Does the act of a single generation negate many generations of domination? We revere the Sunmaker when his reign lasted but the blink of an eye—yet we ignore the centuries the Radiants led. How many Desolations did they defend mankind?”
A: So… wow. I find it disturbing that Gavilar only thinks about the time of the Radiants and the related Alethi status in terms of world domination, though I suppose given modern Vorin belief it makes sense. But the first paragraph? He’s not wrong. There was a time, according to Dalinar’s visions, when the Alethi were a great kingdom. They were the ones the world looked to, the ones whose advice was sought. Their task between Desolations was to maintain the arts and skills needed to be prepared for the next attack, so naturally people looked to them for information and training. Alethela was great because they protected, not because they dominated.
What I find really sad is that the attitude represented by Gavilar here is the one that causes the most problem with Dalinar’s attempts to return to the original responsibility of the Alethi. Dalinar, like the old Radiants, wants nothing more than to unite the world, using whatever resources they have, to defend humanity against the Voidbringers. Those resources necessarily include the primary Alethi strength: warfare. Unfortunately, until they actually have to fight, the rest of the world leaders cannot help but see the way the Alethi have behaved in recent millennia: just like Gavilar.
Relationships & Romances
Gavilar hated the stuff. But then, Gavilar liked his life now.
A: We’ve seen hints of this before, though it gets stronger from here on out. The more they settle into this royalty business, Gavilar likes it better and Dalinar hates it worse.
Dalinar closed his eyes. He felt as if he could drift off, maybe get some sleep without worrying about Evi, or dreaming of war.…
A: I’m pretty sure I totally missed this the first time through—that he’s worrying about Evi because she’s so close to giving birth. We knew she was pregnant from the previous flashback, so the connection is obvious in retrospect, but I’m really not used to him actually being concerned on her behalf!
L: Yeah, this is nice to see. He does care about her, in his own obtuse kind of way.
A: A fitting description.
Dalinar stood up as others, ahead of him, raised their hands and cheered.
The contest. The fight.
That led me to almost kill Gavilar.
Dalinar sat back down.
A: The more I reread this book, the less I like Gavilar, you know? But I do like Dalinar’s loyalty to him. Here, I like the way he can even (sort of) manage to reject the Thrill he loves so much, when he remembers that he almost killed his brother under its influence. I find it one of the younger version’s most redeeming characteristics. I guess I must have a thing about loyalty.
L: I’m with you on this one. A fun writing trick to make an unlikable character resonate with an audience is to give them one thing that makes them better than others around them, or just something “good”. This can be a sense of humor, a penchant for saving animals… or, in this case, loyalty to one’s brother. This said, that modicum of goodwill can only carry an audience so far. Eventually the character must grow and change—and, thankfully, Dalinar does (with a little supernatural help).
Looking into that face, swelling with joy, Dalinar finally understood. This was why Gavilar thought so much about the future, about Alethkar, about crafting a kingdom that would last. Dalinar’s life so far had stained him crimson and thrashed his soul. His heart was so crusted over with crem, it might as well have been a stone.
But this boy… he could rule the princedom, support his cousin the king, and live a life of honor.
L: In most stories, this would be the turning point for the character. This is where they’d turn things around and start to change. I love that this isn’t the case for Dalinar. It’s true that having a child often changes people, but not always. One moment of joy, of clarity—then the reality returns and drowns him.
A: I just need to interject here that Dalinar begins idealizing Adolin the moment he’s born, as the perfect, honorable man Dalinar feels he himself can never be. While there are a few moments in his teens when Dalinar is irritated with his son, that idealization doesn’t really end until maybe the moment when Adolin tells his father about killing Sadeas. I say “maybe” because we don’t really know what Dalinar’s long-term response is going to be. Will he still see Adolin the perfect Alethi highprince in the next book, having rationalized his faults into virtues? But for now, as you say, the high will soon be followed by a low.
L: We see him come to this very revelation a page later:
You’ll be anxious again in a few days, Dalinar told himself. A man can’t change in a moment.
L: Interestingly, however… he does change in a moment. The moment that Cultivation prunes him. But it’s worthwhile to note that the only reason he was able to change so swiftly was due to outside influences. If he’d been left to his own devices, would he have been able to change himself? Maybe. But not overnight.
He needed to celebrate—buy drinks for every man in the army, declare a holiday, or just run through the city whooping for joy. He was a father!
“An excellent day,” Gavilar said. “A most excellent day.”
“How do you contain it?” Dalinar said. “This excitement?”
A: This is a bittersweet moment. He’s so excited about the birth of his son, and then… well:
“It is time to show the kingdom that we are not soft, Brother.”
Oh no. Hours ago, he would have leaped in excitement. But after seeing that child …
…
“Gavilar,” he whispered, “I’m worried.” … “I’m like an animal, Gavilar. Did you hear about the bar fight? Storms. I can’t be trusted around people.” …
“Sure, I can crush this little rebellion, bathe Oathbringer in some blood. Great. Wonderful. Then what? I come back here and lock myself in a cage again?”
…
“… Go do what I command, then return and we can discuss further.”
Dalinar stopped near his brother, then took a single purposeful step into his shadow. Remember this. Remember you serve him. He would never return to that place that had almost led him to attack this man.
A: Again, I find myself angry at Gavilar. It echoes the previous flashback, when Dalinar was angry at Gavilar for ignoring Navani’s excitement about her research while he made notes on his maps. Here, I’m angry at Gavilar for ignoring Dalinar’s concern about his mental state, because the thing Dalinar is worried about has been very convenient for the conquest.
L: He’s doing what a king must and putting aside his own feelings and concerns for the good of the kingdom, but that doesn’t make it any more savory.
A: I don’t suppose I’ll ever find a realistically-written king that I like very well. They have to use people, and use them up when necessary, placing the good of the kingdom first. I can defend it logically, but when I get into their minds too much, I really dislike them.
Bruised & Broken
Dalinar pressed his fingers together, then rubbed them, scraping the dry, red-brown moss against itself.
A: Dalinar the druggie… except he isn’t, really. He’s an addict, all right, but the moss is just a lame replacement for what he really wants, and moss is never enough.
L: When one addiction isn’t available, people often turn to another.
Here, he didn’t have to listen to reports of rebellion and imagine himself out on those fields, solving problems the direct way. Sword in hand, Thrill in his heart …
He rubbed the moss more vigorously. Don’t think about war. Just live in the moment, as Evi always said.
A: Oddly enough, this last line is one of those that makes me most angry at the younger Dalinar. He’s twisting Evi’s philosophy to justify what he knows is bad behavior, and in a backhanded way he’s blaming her for something she’d hate.
“You told me everyone was fine.”
“They lived,” Havar said.
“One … of the brawlers you fought will never walk,” Bashin admitted. “Another had to have his arm removed. A third babbles like a child. His brain doesn’t work anymore.”
“That’s far from fine,” Dalinar snapped.
“Pardon, Dalinar,” Havar said. “But when facing the Blackthorn, that’s as good as one can expect.”
A: Welp. That hurts. I have to admit, I didn’t see this coming in the earlier line about Dalinar’s reputation. He gets in a brawl, and even without his Shards, he maims multiple people.
L: Yeeeaaaah this one hurt. Getting blackout drunk and destroying people’s lives is never okay. (That’s all I’m going to say about that.)
“It’s your daughter,” Dalinar guessed. “Her lunacy.”
“Jasnah is fine, and recovering. It’s not that.”
A: Given what we know of the Alethi approach to madness, it seems like a pretty good assumption that Jasnah’s “lunacy” referred to here is related to her memory from last week, of a dark room and her own screams. She would be eleven years old at this point, poor child.
L: Yeah, I am desperately curious to find out what happened here.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
Tanalan is raising an army and settling into his fortifications. Worse, I think the other highprinces are encouraging him. They want to see how I handle this.” He sneered. “There’s talk I’ve grown soft over the years.”
“They’re wrong.” Dalinar had seen it, these months living with Gavilar. His brother had not grown soft. He was still as eager for conquest as ever; he simply approached it differently. The clash of words, the maneuvering of princedoms into positions where they were forced to obey.
L: I both love and hate this. I love the fact that Dalinar correctly views Gavilar’s diplomacy as strength, but at the same time I hate the fixation on conquest and violence that’s so pervasive in Alethi society.
A: Yes. A taste for power can make people do some pretty heinous things, all in the name of (what they see as) the greater good.
Squires & Sidekicks
Bashin though … well, Bashin was an odd one. Darkeyed of the first nahn, the portly man had traveled half the world, and encouraged Dalinar to go with him to see the other half. He still wore that stupid, wide-brimmed floppy hat.
A: I can’t help thinking that Bashin is an homage to Chel Vanin from the Wheel of Time series. The characters are so similar in this description! It’s worth noting that he stays with Dalinar for a lot of years; he’s the huntmaster for that disastrous chasmfiend hunt back in TWoK Chapter 12, and later we see him as the scout coordinator in the trek to Narak.
L: I wonder if he’s going to wind up playing a bigger part eventually. I really like this world-traveler bit!
Tight Butts and Coconuts
He’d ripped the buttons free in removing it so quickly.
L: I’m sorry, I have to. (Also I’d just like to point out that this came up when I did the search for that gif and it’s… it’s… you’re welcome.)
Soon, he and his friends were alone in the room, surveying empty tables, abandoned cups, and spilled drinks.
L: Tell us more about those empty tables, Dalinar. (I really wish I had meaningful discourse to make but it appears my main contributions this week are silly gifs and videos and you know what? I’m okay with that.)
Weighty Words
He looked down at the boy, who—red faced—wiggled and thrashed with his tiny fists. He had shockingly thick hair, black and blond mixed. Good coloring. Distinctive.
May you have your father’s strength, Dalinar thought, rubbing the child’s face with his finger, and at least some of your mother’s compassion, little one.
A: I love this moment. It’s almost prophetic, because in many ways, that’s how Adolin turned out. There’s some debate about the quality of his strength, though I think he’s strong in all the ways he should be. He certainly got some of his mother’s compassion; you see it in the way he interacts with people from all walks of life.
L: I’m not sure how anyone could argue that he’s not a strong person. He’s a born leader, he’s compassionate to those below him AND above, and he’s a talented fighter in a world that values that above almost everything else.
“I need more than just words!”
L: How ironic, considering where he’s headed.
“Words are important,” Gavilar said. “Much more than you give them credit for being.”
“Perhaps,” Dalinar said. “But if they were all-powerful, you wouldn’t need my sword, would you?”
“Perhaps. I can’t help feeling words would be enough, if only I knew the right ones to say.”
L: Dun dun duuuuuuuun!
A: Seriously! I can’t help wondering whether Gavilar could truly have become a Radiant and spoken the Ideals… but I suppose the question comes because I’ve found myself disliking and distrusting him a lot this week.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
He held the boy aloft in both hands, letting out a whooping laugh, gloryspren bursting around him as golden spheres.
L: There’s those gloryspren again! It’s been awhile for Dalinar.
A: It’s really entertaining to see these gloryspren all the time now, after seeing how important they became at the end of the book.
Also, as a mother, my first thought was, “I sure hope he was supporting that baby’s head properly!” If he wasn’t, it doesn’t seem to have done Adolin any harm, I guess…
Quality Quotations
“Lighteyes need folks to obey them, right? I’m making certain that you got lots to serve you, at least by weight.”
A: Such a generous fellow, that Bashin.
Gavilar had settled upon a black iron circlet. The more Gavilar’s hair greyed, the easier the crown was to see.
L: I’ve got to wonder if there’s some symbolism at play here, either on Gavilar’s part or Sanderson’s.
What are your thoughts on the chapter? Tell us about it in the comments! Then rejoin us next week, along with Aubree, for Chapters 50 and 51, all full of Dalinar and Moash and Shallan, oh my.
Alice is, quite suddenly, sopping wet. Indian summer is over, and it’s probably going to rain in the Pacific Northwest for the next eight months. You can almost see her brain rusting… except when it’s just frozen, like the windshield this morning.
Lyndsey is now in the midst of haunt season, which means her voice is totally fried from screaming at people all night. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Maybe Rosharan children are born with tougher necks. They’re bigger and tougher than us Earth people in so many other ways.
Great reread as always!!
Sanderson is doing a GREAT job of getting us hooked for the backstories – Jasnah and Renarin at least. Last week people were talking about the possibility that Jasnah was just being kept in a dark room until her emotions were released, but Dalinar straight-up calls it ‘lunacy’ here. That’s a bit strong for a temper tantrum. Unfortunately, from the way Gavilar is portrayed in these flashbacks, I doubt he would have paid much mind to Jasnah during this period, even if she was undergoing something dark.
Its interesting that the prologue, in which he’s telling Eshonai he’s found a way to bring the Listener Gods back, was 5 years ago – however, this flashback is 23 years ago, but shows the Radiants had already been on Gavilar’s mind for a while. That’s a 17-year gap. I wonder when he either joined or founded the Sons of Honour and when he actually started messing with the Voidbringers.
I love that Adolin does seem to have the best of both his father and mother. The leadership and fighting abilities, mixed with being able to genuinely connect with anybody. And he manages to get Renarin better than anyone.
Speaking of Renarin, it does fit that the idealised firstborn gets the fancy name and from memory, the strange second child gets the odd name that doesn’t mean anything in Alethi.
Before I started reading Oathbringer, I was warned Part 2 had little of Adolin in it. I was also warned by Brandon Sanderon himself, through his numerous Oathbringer updates, he worried about how it would be received since it was slow paced and contained little of the main characters.
While I was reading the book, the first time around, I was glad for those warnings as they allowed me to enjoy Part 2 without shuffling ahead to find chapters I’d be more interested in than the ones the author had to proposed (though shuffling ahead I still did, but not as much as I could have). Upon re-read, I thought Part 2 was…. long. Hence, this one chapter, together with the “After his Father” chapter came in as a breath of fresh air. Little Adolin is truly aptly named as he was “light” for me as I was reading Part 2.
So everyone will, of course, have guessed I love this chapter. I do not often comment on the Herald being shown at the beginning of each chapter, but I thought, this week, perhaps Jezrien, the leader, is shown because little Adolin is meant to be “light”. And what does light do? It chases the shadows. It guides. So maybe there is a significance hidden in here. In fact, Adolin’s names has more than one meanings. I’ll come to that.
This chapter, I find, has been crafted in an interesting way. The early pages spoke a smoky tavern filled with men of debatable reputation as Dalinar views the world in a tapestry of greys. Life is boring, meaningless, colorless. Dark. Grey. With random splotches of red, but mostly grey. Lifeless. Dalinar only feels alive when the Thrill pumps into his veins, chasing the grey while painting his whole world red. Red. The only color Dalinar sees which isn’t drab.
The contrast with the vivid mansion decorated in lavish colors was shocking… but even if his environment is colorful, Dalinar remains colorless up until he sees his son, up until he holds Adolin for the first time.
Then, Dorothe opens the door to OZ while the Circle of Life (really, this scene is such a re-playing of the Lion King!) plays in the background: Dalinar will always remember holding Adolin for the first time as one of the rare moments where the Thrill vanished. Beaten down. Destroyed. Chased as, for a mere moment, there no longer where any shadows inside Dalinar to hide within. That boy chased them all just by existing.
Hence, while it is true Dalinar idolizes Adolin the moment he is born, while it is true he pushes his own expectations into a small boy on Day 1, while it is true this connection he instantly feels is exactly the one thing which prevents Dalinar from actually getting to know the man his son really is, I do think there is a strong symbolism in Dalinar’s choice of name for his son.
My interpretation of Adolin’s name is very simple… Dalinar named him after light because to him, Adolin is light. The light which chased the Thrill, the light which allowed him to feel alive in ways even the Thrill could not provide.
Adolin is Dalinar’s light, hence the name. Unfortunately, it eventually becomes a burden as Adolin soon becomes too important to Dalinar psyche to be allowed to grow into his own person. He is light, he has to be light, one of the rays of purity Dalinar does hang onto as he defeats Odium.
And Adolin probably has no idea why he was named after light and certainly believes it means he has to be the “inspiring figure of purity” Dalinar wants him to be when he wishes to crown him King. To makes matters even harder, Adolin is strong, so strong he never once faltered and may never faltered, compassionate, he is everything his father wanted him to be except… except he cannot care about the same things his father cares about. He cannot put “Honor” above all else as his father did, he cannot turn his words into iron and stick to them in the face of the worst adversity.
Adolin is not honorable, he tries, but when it matters, he just isn’t honorable. And that’s where father and son clashes or where I hoped they will clash. How many readers believe Dalinar really accepted Adolin murdering Sadeas? How many do think Dalinar really dropped his expectations for Adolin now the cat is out of the bag? In this very chapter, Dalinar states a man cannot change within a few minutes. So true. Hence, can we really expect Dalinar to have changed how he views Adolin in mere minutes just because he’s had an ordeal? Thus what does the reveal means for their relationship? A very uneven relationship…
Adolin believes he needs to protect Dalinar, to shelter Dalinar, to die for Dalinar whereas Dalinar believes Adolin should want to die for his ideals, should want to die for him and relies on Adolin being strong to move forward as a person. Dalinar never once considers the possibility Adolin may not be strong at all times, but he expects everyone to understand he can’t be strong at all times. Hence, everyone is allowed to break down, except Adolin. No one in-world considers this could even be a possibility.
Thus, am I the only one who sees how backward the Dalinar/Adolin relationship is? Am I the only one who feels the roles have been reversed here? The father should protect the son. The son should take strength into the father to learn how to make the next step. The son should not be the father’s inspiration, as a parent… this just does not work at all. It’d be as if I were asking my children to be my grounding stones, my hopes and dreams, my means by which I would grow whereas it should be the other way. I should be the one to help my children grow into healthy beings, I should be their grounding stone: I cannot ask them to carry on MY problems, to care for ME while I am the grown-up and they are the kids.
And they certainly should not think they need to die for me. Parents die before children. The fact Adolin so readily believes Dalinar’s well-being is more important than his just never sat well with me. I do not expect other readers to share my thoughts. As a rule of thumb, other readers tends to disagree with vehement passion with those thoughts. Those thoughts are usually met with anger-filled rants, but they remain how I am currently viewing both characters relationship one towards the other.
Unhealthy. Unbalanced. Reversed. And no, it can’t have been fixed within two paragraphs. When did Dalinar ever learn a lesson NOT the hard way? Never.
Do you hate all fictional military officers as well? It is literally their job to send people off to die (and that responsibility is destroying Kaladin).
Lower gravity on Roshar, remember?
By the way, per Tor.com tradition this post is not appearing on the front page in the Series area.
@@.-@ Officers usually don’t have to use their family the way kings do. Gavilar has subordinated his relationship with his brother to his relationship with his subject. Interestingly, Dalinar does the reverse.
@5: Interestingly, Dalinar does the same with Adolin: he subordinated his relationship with his son to a relationship from an officer to a mere soldier. The only son Dalinar actually has a real father/son relationship with turns out being Renarin, oddly enough.
Working on reading the article-sure it’s great as always-but FYI @Moderator or Alice or whoever this week’s chapter isn’t showing up in the index yet.
@7 – Fixed, thanks!
I am glad that Adolin did not have 2 “Ds” in his name. If the name started with “Adod”, I would have constantly read and written the name as Adodo…, regardless of how it was actually pronounced and spelled.
I think the Herlad is Jezrien because Dalinar sees his new born child for the first time. Dalinar has the potential to protect his son (as all new parents do when the child is first born).
I find it interesting that the concept of honor is so embedded in the Alethi culture (“But this boy … he could rule the princedom, support his cousin the king, and live a life of honor.”) . I have no doubt that Brandon used the word honor intentionally here.
I hope that we do not learn that Jasnah’s problem is was a werewolf but the condition was cured in her past (although she does not remember the details). Because if that is the case (and by no means do I support this wacky theory), then Brandon’s use of “lunancy” is very bad pun.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Maybe Jasnah’s “lunacy” has something to do with her bonding Ivory? Maybe she told her parents that she could see into the world of Spren and change water into wine and her family just assumed she was crazy and locked her in a dark room. We know that’s a treatment the Alethi use on the mentally unstable (like Kalak for instance).
So first my own thoughts.
I do find it an excellent point that perhaps names that have meanings carry greater important in the cosmere given the cognitive realm and how the way one views oneself does affect a lot of things. This does bring up a lot of interestin implications for Adolin (Born onto Light) and Renarin (Born onto Himself)
I do love the continued hints that there is love (in Dalinar’s own negative way) growing between himself and Evi. I also love the tidbits of Dalinar trying to resist the Thrill. Finally I feel both show that I think had Evi lived, she could have helped Dalinar overcome the Thrill. All of this makes the tragedy to come all the greater and harder felt.
I feel for Jasnah. Eleven years old, shoved in a dark room, who knows what was done to her in an effort to cure her “lunacy”. Scars she clearly carries even to today.
@10 toothlessjoe
Personally I do not think that is the case but it could go either way. When we see Jasnah first meet Ivory, she does act surprised to be pulled into the cognitive realm, and to meet him, so at least that portion I think was brand new/novel to her. However she did notice her shadow directed towards the lamps, and said basically “oh no not again”. That could mean she did see those things when she was younger as the result of spren, or my personal belief, due to schizophrenic hallucinations. Can’t wait to find out! :)
Interestingly, we know Kaladin was also locked in a dark room (away from Stormlight) after Elholar blamed him for letting Sadeas off the hook. Theme?
He held the boy aloft in both hands, letting out a whooping laugh, gloryspren bursting around him as golden spheres.
Gepeto already touched it, but I cannot help imagining Dalinar standing on Pride Rock with Adolin every time I read this …
But the end of this chapter (after Dalinar stormed out of the den) was really lovely, with so many lovely little moments. And the name really does suit Adolin so well (and I have wondered if they do affect the personality some way, because this is a later chapter’s subject, but in a weird way I find Renarin’s suits him, too).
Also, as a mother, my first thought was, “I sure hope he was supporting that baby’s head properly!”
I’m not a mother, but I have a five-months-old nephew, so this was my very second thought (after the Pride Rock image), too!
It seems like more than a coincidence that all the Kholins are getting the first crack at new Radiancy. Like maybe there was some kind of historical connection between the family and the cognitive realm. Jasnah’s lunacy, Gavilar’s hints, these things speak to that. We know that spren are creatures of consistency, slow to change. So when they go hunting for bondmates in preparation for a Desolation they will naturally look for the things they’ve always looked for. Now we get to OB and 3 Orders are Kholins, 2 more were snuffed out before achieving a bond, 2 are closely held by Kholins and one seems close to reviving a dead spren. Something’s going on here.
@14: I am pleased to hear I wasn’t the only one who thought of Mufasa/Simba when reading this scene! In an ideal world where I’d be able to spend an hour with Brandon to pester him with my questions, I’d definitely ask him if the Lion King was an inspiration when he wrote this chapter. Perhaps he was watching with his kids when he was working on SA3, who knows?
Inadvertently, associating Adolin to Simba also brings forward the hero-worshiping complex he has towards his father as Simba too idolizes his father. Simba too feels he will never be good enough to walk into Mufasa’s foot steps until he is forced too. Simba too was lied on how a beloved parent really died. Overall, this is a nice thematic. I hope to read more on this in book 4.
@15: While I agree something is going on here, I’d toss Adolin out of the list: no one could have predicted he would revive his dead-Blade. Hence, when came the time to turn all Kholins into Radiants, he was skipped over. As a reader who love the character, I always wanted to know why and I could never get fail-proof argumentation, only statements which are based on how readers interpret the character.
This is a great flashback chapter, maybe even my favorite one in the book. Dalinar realizes a bit of what he does when he’s let the beast inside him out and realizes it’s not normal or good. I think with Evi and Adolin both close (and Renarin later?) he could have maybe got over the Thrill. But as bad as the fire moss is for Teft that doesn’t even come close to good enough for Dalinar… he’s in a bad spot.
Baby Adolin is so cute! Yay babies-just be careful of the head, as Alice noted. Very Pride Rock; how interesting that that’s all of our first instinct for how this looks. I love the name meaning ‘born into light’. It’s so true for all babies-the potential is there for them to be anything! The fact that Adolin is literally a light for Dalinar is a bit disconcerting, but anything that keeps him from the Thrill cravings is a good thing.
Lyn-your gifs and vids are the perfect levity to what can sometimes become a very heavy discussion. Don’t let them go away
Aside from Dalinar learning what he did in that brawl and being sent to battle, this is kind of a nice chapter. I especially like the banter about Bashin’s hat, which almost inspires me to re-acquire the earlier Stormlight Archive audiobooks and seaech for the other passages that involve him.
I like Dalinar’s recognirion that giving birth can be a physical and emotional ordeal akin to battle. The phrase “A woman’s war is in the birthing bed” is used in the Song of Ice and Fire books by misogynists in oppostiton to certain female warriors, but there’s truth in it, especially in times and places where childbirth is often deadly. (Says someone who has never given birth and hopefully never will).
What language are Adolin, Renarin, and other characters named in? Is there some old language that Alethi sometimes know but don’t normally use for other reasons, like the languages many Earth people are named in?
Even on a first read, it was peculiar to see Dalinar’s moment of joy and clarity, as you say, knowing that he still has a long road of violence and Bad Things — mysterious Bad Things that would somehow be removed from his memory — between then and the present day. Now knowing just how far he’ll far into external and internal horrors, this last moment of beauty feels more sad-making to a reader, its briefness realistic.
@10 toothlessjoe – I paused at the word “lunacy” too, but I didn’t think of werewolves – – instead, it brought up ideas about Roshar’s moons and the legends and myths about them. Maybe the influence of “luna” (Latin for moon) is thought to have a different effect on Roshar, or maybe multiple effects since there are 3 moons, so that “lunacy” means something different in-world as well. Interesting…
@Gepeto
I added Adolin to the list because I find it suspicious that a Kholin, the only one in a family of Radiants not to attract a spren is on the verge of doing what many people in world see as impossible. And I mean really, Elkohar attracted a spren ahead of Adolin? That doesn’t make sense unless he was already somewhat claimed by another. I think Maya has already staked her claim to Adolin’s soul. I admit that may be me putting on my tinfoil fedora but whatever. For me Adolin makes the cut for strange inexplicable Kholin spren shenanigans.
You know, I always assumed the Lunacy, was a bad childhood sickness, akin to yellow fever and how it affects certain young children.
@Gepeto
You’ve given me an idea. Has anyone in the entire Stormlight Archive successfully become a Knight Radiant while bonded to a deadeye Shardblade? Kaladin refused to take one, Dalinar had given his up, Renarin was already bonded to Glys before he got his. Maybe that’s why Gavilar never quite made it? Both Dalinar and Renarin bonded dead blades after becoming Radiant, but it seems the bond was unstable–Dalinar even mentally comments on how his bond was too easy to break.
@17: This one sentence expresses how ill-at-ease I am next to the Dalinar/Adolin relationship:
From a protagonist point of view, there is nothing wrong in the main protagonist, Dalinar, to find inspiration, strength and, well, light within his son. There is nothing wrong in Dalinar drawing light from his son to battle down the Thrill. However, from an Adolin point of view, I find it so wrong…
This is no responsibility a child should carry for a parent.
@20, EvilMonkey: It has always bothered, from a meta-narrative perspective, how Elhokar and Renarin were deemed more suitable for the Nahel Bond than Adolin. I could rationalize it when we all believed one had to be deeply traumatized to be considered interesting to any given spren, but ever since Brandon confirmed this isn’t true, I am slightly lost. It has always been clear Elhokar and Renarin were chosen because of their lineage, because of their proximity to Dalinar, but then how come Adolin wasn’t picked? Even if he isn’t the ideal pick, why not him? Neither Elhokar nor Renarin seem particularly ideal picks either… One does not need to be the perfect match to be a Radiant, one merely needs to attract the attention of a spren. We know many sprens are looking for Radiants around the Kholins, so why was Adolin skipped?
While I like your fedora hat theory, I do not find there is enough to go by to state Maya had called dibs on Adolin prior to saving him in Shadesmar. So while I would definitely argue she considers him hers, now, I wouldn’t argue she did early in the series. Hence, it can’t explain why Adolin was left out.
No matter how I shuffle it in my head, I never come up with a satisfactory explanation. I’d be great to ask Brandon though this might also be the kind of questions which does not fetch the expected answer.
@22, Carl: Well… Elhokar? And Dalinar’s bond started while he was bonded to Oathbringer. Gavilar had been chosen to become a Bondsmight and he too was bonded to a dead-Blade… I say, we have plenty of examples which kind of proves it isn’t the reason.
On Gavilar and Dalinar: I have seen some readers comment on how negative they view their relationship. It is true Gavilar treats Dalinar more like a subordinate and a soldier than a brother. It is also true Gavilar is more focused on his higher goals and it is true he will use all assets he has to achieve them. Gavilar is convinced he is working for the greater good and genuinely wants his brother to adhere to his ideals. It is however true Gavilar could have given more attention and care towards Dalinar’s problems and it is true he shouldn’t be taking his brother for granted.
All this is true.
Now, time to give some food for additional thoughts.
Dalinar does treat Adolin more like a subordinate and a soldier than a son. Dalinar too is focused on his higher goals, his visions, his unity and he will use all assets he had to achieve them. Dalinar firmly believes he is working for the greater good and he does genuinely want Adolin to adhere to his ideals. Dalinar could have given more attention and care to Adolin, he should not take him for granted: he could waste some of his thoughts to wonder if his son is alright within this rapidly changing world.
Gavilar asks Dalinar to kill a Shardbearer for him. Dalinar asks Adolin to defeat 30 Shardbearers and to win Shards for him. When Dalinar is injured, Gavilar is more interested in finding out if Dalinar closed out all lose ends than his well-being. When Adolin is injured, Dalinar is more interested in giving orders to his Radiants than wasting so much as a glance towards his son.
Dalinar is loyal to a bone to Gavilar and will do anything he asks of him. Adolin is loyal to a bone to Dalinar and will do anything he asks of him.
I could keep on going on but my point is Dalinar treats Adolin like Gavilar treated him. Hence, if one relationship is seen as negative, than so must the other. I however consider one worst than the other as a father does have greater responsibilities towards a son than a brother has towards another brother, IMHO.
Perhaps this line of thought will be more persuasive than other argumentation I have used in the past.
@23 Gepeto
I like your thinking, and I believe that Dalinar’s relationship with his son is shaped by his relationship with his older brother. Gavilar taught him that the head of a family should be stern and commanding, while the other family members should be loyal and obedient. Dalinar was a soldier for his brother, so he expects that his older son should be a soldier for him.
@2 Gaz
That Galvilar decided that The Son’s of Honor and triggering a Desolation was the way to go about making a lasting Alethkar makes me think that whatever gave him the idea must have been on the Voidbringer side of things. Maybe there was something hidden in the palace, related to those black spheres, that was discovered at this time. I also wonder if Jasnah’s mysterious lunacy is connected to whatever he found, since Gavilar’s sudden interest in the Knights radiant happens at the same time.
@19 aggie1
Although I like the “lunacy” point, and the moons certainly have lots of story potential.
@20 EvilMonkey
Yeah I think any spren who saw what Adolin was doing would stand back and give him room! Nothing the spren had tried for centuries had been able to revive their dead brethren; what Adolin is accomplishing is unprecedented.
As for why Adolin didn’t get a spren before there were signs of Maya’s revival, I think @22 Carl has a good point, that having dead Shards might stop or slow the attraction of a spren.
However, the major reason I think Adolin was “skipped” was because he wasn’t, really. He just didn’t attract a spren yet. Jasnah attracted her spren years ago, so at that point the other members of her family could all be considered “skipped”, until they weren’t. Most of TWoK and WoR and OB takes place at breakneck speed, and other than Cryptics there are not a lot of spren hunting around. Syl is the only honorspren until OB, and Ivory’s relatives may not have shown up yet, if they ever will. We have one Truthwatcher with one one-of-a-kind (as far as we know) corrupted spren. There is a Dustbringer, and then there is Lift. We aren’t exactly swimming in Knights Radiant or the spren that make them. The prolific spren belong to the Skybreaker’s and Lightweavers, and I don’t think either fit Adolin. So, I think he would have eventually attracted a spren as part of Alethkars ruling family, but then Maya happened, and I can’t see any way in Damnation that a spren would interfere with that.
Awesome analysis Gepeto. Never quite delved deep enough into their relationships to pull that nugget. It may even be an intentional narrative device on Brandon’s part. One difference I see however is that no matter how much Adolin admires and idolizes his father he still has the strength of character and strength of will to call Dalinar on his bullshit from time to time. It’s that ability to defy his father on matters he feels are important, an ability Dalinar never managed with Gavilar, that should give people hope that this father/son relationship will be a healthier one than the blind hero worship Dalinar gave to his brother.
@25 Add Truthwatcher Spren to the list of those out looking for bondmates. Ym’s buddy was a Truthwatcher that didn’t make it. I forgot what kind of spren Stump has.
@24: Thanks. I too believe Dalinar’s relationship with Gavilar influenced his relationship with Adolin. And just as Dalinar never realized all the ramifications within his relationship with Gavilar, he isn’t seeing them with his relationship with Adolin. Adolin however is not Dalinar: he does feel the weight. He’s the son, it makes up for a very different set of reactions.
I do believe Brandon has set up a nice mirror over here.
@25: On Adolin and sprens, I have just gotten my hand on this new WoB:
I have highlighted the part of the answer I think might be relevant to this discussion. Adolin hasn’t overcome any difficult trial. I do believe he is considerably more broken than he appears, but somehow what he did go through didn’t transpose into tangible trials. So, his father has never really been his father and is putting impossible expectations on him? What is there to overcome for Adolin? He is bone-deep loyal, he will do whatever Dalinar asks of him (except being King). He feels unworthy, but this hasn’t opened up on anything resembling a path for him to walk on.
Adolin has no trials because he considers nothing is a trial: he just obeys his father, does what Dalinar wants, protects Dalinar. He is lying to himself the whole time, but it is easy. Following someone else’s lead is easy.
So which trials are there for Adolin to go through which would be sufficient for his bond with Maya to cement itself?
This being said, I do like your thinking. Adolin was not chosen, yet. I however do agree whatever he has with Maya will keep all other sprens away from him.
RE: lunacy
I think people are missing the significant detail here. Rayse is imprisoned on one of the Roshar moons. Lunacy could easily refer to his influence.
I’m wondering if Gavilar knows more about The Thrill than we realize. Or if he was already involved enough in the Sons of Honor to intientionally use Dalinar to help bring on a new desolation/return of the Heralds.
@28 Roger Pavelle – – – I thought that Rayse was imprisoned on Braise – another planet in the Greater Roshar system, not a moon of Roshar itself. That’s what the Coppermind seems to say, at any rate. But admittedly I’m so wary of spoilers that I don’t scan info as thoroughly as other do.
Seems we’re all eager for Jasnah’s flashback book to understand what she went through. :-)
@26: Thanks. I do think it was intentional. Brandon loves to draw parallel in between his characters: this is just another one of those.
I agree on the differences. I didn’t push my commentary that far because it was getting long, but I do agree. Adolin does defy Dalinar and he does say “no” right here, at the end of OB. I would definitely argue the ending of OB marks exactly where the Dalinar/Adolin relationship starts to differ from the Gavilar/Dalinar one.
Another interesting element would be Dalinar stating how he always needed a strong example to learn his lessons. What strong example will he need to learn how to establish a better relationship with Adolin? I certainly does not consider it ends the book being healthy and/or fixed. Much water will need to flow under the bridge before Adolin stops hero-worshiping Dalinar and starts thinking perhaps his own life does have some worth.
@28 @29
Aggie1 is correct that Braise is another planet, not a moon.
Adolin’s trials are evident in OB. In a world where Radiants are back in full force Adolin is being left behind. His wife is Radiant. His little brother, the one he had always tried to protect is Radiant. His best friend is Radiant. His dad and both his cousins are Radiants. Suddenly a man who was important is steadily sliding down the totem pole to the point that a little Reshi orphan girl is more important in the state of world affairs than he is. He’s always felt unworthy despite his station but during OB he expressed it outwardly. He refused Kingship. He tried to give up Shallan. He’s such a positive kind of guy that his issues don’t seem to effect him much but I think he is at his low point despite the wedding. He won’t look like Kaladin the wretch but that doesn’t mean he’s not at that point.
EvilMonkey @26, Stump is also a Truthwatcher, as far as I know.
@32: Yes, but reading Brandon’s recent WoB, are they sufficient? Especially when we compare to them to the established Radiants? This has always been where Adolin’s character was losing points within the fandom: even when he struggles, he doesn’t struggle enough or the narrative does not give the impression he is struggling enough.
I do agree his positive attitude does have for results of mitigating the impact of any issues he might have. I would further argue and say, merely because someone doesn’t appear to be struggling does not mean all is good for this individual. Within the Moash’s chapters, we talked of how some people would hide their own vulnerability behind masks of arrogance and indifference: with Adolin we see a young man who is undeniably hiding his behind a mask of positivity and happiness. He does outright tell Shallan he spent a lifetime pretending he were someone he never was and, for a while, it is highly probable Adolin did believe he could be “Born unto Light” for Dalinar, but killing Sadeas just broke down the illusion. There were no going back from this.
I do think refusing to be King was perhaps the first straw which has made the camel’s back bent. Dalinar spent a lifetime raising Adolin to be perfect and on the day Adolin tells him he cannot do his bidding because he isn’t perfect enough, Dalinar tells him he never had to be perfect, just to do his duty. Ah how hypocrite was this! Really Dalinar? You’ve been telling him since he was a boy he HAD to be perfect, to do EXACTLY as you say and now, suddenly, when it threatens your unity, it no longer matters?
I don’t think Adolin has reached rock bottom. I am not even sure he will plummeted further down, but if I am to hazard a guess, I would argue his lowest point should be when he loses this childish naivety he has towards his father. It should be when he stops hero-worshipping his father, when he loses those illusions and perhaps when he really, truly does fail Dalinar in more obvious ways.
Dalinar’s rock bottom was when he lost all pretend he actually had control on himself. To aptly parallel his father, Adolin would need to lose all pretend he actually can control who he is. Through his ordeal, Dalinar found out he could be honorable. What will Adolin find? If he goes there, this is all highly hypothetical.
On the side notes, I would point out how Gavilar created a new world, a new dynasty for Alethkar and the deeper they went into this making, the more ill-at-ease Dalinar grew. He never wanted those changes and he hated seeing all the things he was good at (fighting, killing) suddenly became negative under his brother’s careful rule. Worst, Dalinar considers himself inadequate for everything this new kingdom deems important (politics). Gavilar never noticed his brother was having a reaction or, if he noticed, he didn’t pay it great care. Whether he actually cares about it or not, Gavilar considers his unity is more important than Dalinar.
Dalinar too is currently creating a new world where Radiants walk among men. He too is pushing Alethkar to change, to morph and to go back to the mighty kingdom it once was. Adolin too is ill-at-ease within this rapidly changing world as everything he has been good at (dueling) is now irrelevant. Adolin never wanted those changes and he does not consider he has the right skills to evolve within this new world (leadership, strategy, being a general, soldering). Dalinar is not paying any attention to Adolin, he has not noticed his eldest son has been left behind. He is proud of Renarin, but if he has had thoughts for what it meant for Adolin to not be a part of team Radiant, he never voiced them within a 100K words narrative. Whether he cares about it or not, Dalinar certainly thinks his unity is more important than Adolin.
Dalinar ultimately fall for not having had the proper support when it was still time to give it to him. Will Adolin now fall for not currently having support when he probably needs it?
Just spit balling here, but maybe what makes Adolin and Renarin different from the other Kholins is their Riran blood. Dalinar, Jasnah, Elhokar & Gavilar all attracted regular spren. But Evi’s kids attarcted a corrupted spren and a deadeye spren.
@13 Carl
One nitpicker to another lol. Kaladin wasn’t locked in a “dark room”. There was stormlight in a holder on the wall across from his cell, that he could see and reach out towards. I mention this because Kaladin was tempted to reach out and breathe in the stormlight to escape from the jail, but Syl convinced him not to.
@15 EvilMonkey
My own theory is the spren will not necessarily seek what they always used to seek because of the Recreance. I have posted the theory before so I will not go in length on it, but I feel whole types of spren are avoiding humans now to the point that in some cases only the “rebels” of their group seek humans out to bond. This could potentially alter the priorities of the bonding spren. Also confirmed via WoB, bonding is a very personal choice from spren to spren. So there could be a ton of reasons that different spren bond different people from our cast that completely differ from each other. Each order is unique in what they look for, each individual spren is unique in what they further narrowly look for, and the Recreance throws in a whole other level of variability (Timbre seeking a parshendi instead of a human for instance).
@17 Joyspren
I whole heartily agree. What we see is a degree of self-reflection on Dalinar’s part. He is realizing that the Thrill is actually a negative influence in his life. First Evi, then later Adolin, and Renarin began giving him a reason to want to be “normal”. Unfortunately he didn’t have a chance to see that through with them.
@18 AeronaGreenjoy
I like Dalinar’s use of the “woman’s war” because it shows how he always thinks like a soldier. I agree, he wasn’t being dismissive of Evi to relegate such a “task” to women. He was showing respect. He realized that giving birth is physically, mentally, and emotionally taxing much like battle. It was an endearing moment to me.
I agree, I love the juxtaposition both for and despite the pain that will follow.
@20 EvilMonkey
I would agree with you on being perplexed as to why Elhokar bonded a spren before Adolin if we were to assume they would bond the same type of spren. However Elhokar attracted a Cryptic who belongs to a group who are actively “experimenting” bonding with humans to gain information. So their sample size would be larger. Conversely if we are to assume Adolin would bond an edgedancer spren, the only example we have of one is Wyndle who was “assigned” to Lift to bond. Lift who was contrary to who Wyndle originally wanted to bond. If we are to take Wyndle as an example of the current crop of edgedancer spren (after the horror of the Recreance), they could potentially want to avoid martially inclined people. But it is also as I said a supremely individualistic experience on the spren’s part and we do not know if the Circle could have only allowed one edgedancer spren to bond, or that they noticed what was happening with Adolin, so made a conscious choice to prevent any other spren from bonding with him to give Maya that chance. As far as we know, Cultivation could have taken a personal interest in Adolin like she did with Lift.
@22 Carl
I will say potentially Cultivation if she took an interest in Adolin like she did with Lift could have possibly predicted him reviving Maya. Wyndle seems to believe edgedancer spren are most in line with Cultivation, so that could be a reason why she would take a special interest in the restoration of what could be viewed as her “children”.
Elhokar, and Dalinar have been bonded to a shardblade prior to bonding with a spren. The big indicator it seems that one is bonding a spren is you then hear the blade screaming while you wield it, not while you are bonded to it.
@25 nightheron
That is an interesting possibility. That perhaps Gavilar used something he found on Jasnah, or it indirectly affected her causing her lunacy. After realizing its affect on her, Gavilar removed it, or stopped, and that is why she suddenly “recovered”.
You echo much of my thoughts on why Adolin has not bonded a spren yet. I agree.
@26 EvilMonkey
Yes, as confirmed later by another poster (I have to get to that part), there are three confirmed Truthwatchers. Ym, Renarin and Stump. The fact that they persisted to bond, despite Nale killing one of their own, and Sja-anat having corrupted another speaks to knowledge that potentially the Truthwatcher spren have that I do not think the rest of the radiant spren possess. Can’t wait to find out more about Renarin!
@28 RogerPavelle
Hmmm, that is an interesting point. Gavilar does seem to know far more than he lets on and he does seem to be a user. Maybe he was playing both sides for what he felt was the best interests of Roshar, even if that included manipulating his brother with the Thrill. Scary thought, and I could see it being devastating to Dalinar if that was revealed to be true.
@29 aggie1
Gah, the back 5 stormlight books can’t come soon enough! :)
@35 toothlessjoe
Personally I do not feel that is the case, but it is a very interesting idea, and if it turns out to be true I would eagerly await to find out the cosmeric implications!
Interesting tidbit about bonding radiant spren and what order people end up belonging to
DammyJerry
Have you ever thought (just for fun) which KR Order your characters for other books would fit the best? Like, Sazed is Bondsmith, Kelsier is probably Skybreaker. Which Rosharian Shard, Honor, Cultivation or Odium, better fits with Dalinar’s personality?
Brandon Sanderson
I’d agree with the other commenter that Kelsier isn’t much of a Skybreaker. But picking orders would depend on what point in the person’s life we’re talking, and the situation. it’s not a hard-fast rule. For example, young Dalinar is very Odium. Modern Dalinar is very Honor.
Side note, I think Kelsier would be either a lightweaver or a willshaper (both by the end of mistborn as around then he becomes more self reflective) :)
Is this the chapter where Gavilar told Dalinar that there is something that might, perhaps, help him manage his Thrill addiction? Or did that come later? IIRC he wrote to Dalinar immediately before second Rathalas, that there was something hugely important that he needed to share with his brother, but of course Dalinar was no longer in state to be his brother’s confidant by the time that it was over. I have always thought that that was the moment when Gavilar intended to share his SF/Honor-induced dreams and what he planned to do about them.
Gepeto @23:
I wouldn’t personally discount the possibility that some kind of low-key bonding _was_ happening between Adolin and Maya over the years – he began to talk to her immediately after acquiring her and also felt that she was alive, so…
But there is also this – Edgedancer spren are located in Shadesmar located in the far western part of Roschar and we know that people who Wyndle and the Circle looked at were all Iri. Even Lift was somewhere there, even assuming that she had already left Ral Elorim, slowly traveling on foot eastwards. She only came as far east as she did – i.e. into Azir, because Nale kept chasing her. So, it very much may be that spren who were the most compatible to Adolin just didn’t look where he was, but searched their candidate in the areas more strongly under Cultivation’s sway. Oh, and Stoneward spren, which may have also been compatible, didn’t pick anybody yet as far as we know, and, in fact are adamantly opposed to ever bonding again. Of course, now Adolin is “taken”, what with Maya apparently slowly reviving.
I… also don’t think that it was unsual for sons to fight for and protect their aging fathers, back in the day iRL. Not that I don’t agree that there are problems in Dalinar and Adolin’s relationship. Some of which are due to them putting each other on pedestal.
Nightheron @25:
What Gavilar wanted to start was a _False_ Desolation. IMHO, it is an important distinction and it wasn’t due to the Voidbringer influence per se. He had the dreams and he likely thought that it was the best way to convince the nations to unite and prepare for the Final Desolation that Honor warned about in them.
You know, Gepeto, your thoughts on the Dalinar/Adolin relationship remind me of those parents who try to relive their past glories through their children. “I was a college linebacker so you have to spend all your free time playing football whether you like it or not.” It’s an extremely unhealthy thing to do, and often times kids in those situations either seem to go in one of two directions – they resent their parents, or idolize them. Adolin seems to have taken the latter course.
@39 IMO, it’s even worse when it’s something morally instilled. “You are the heir to the most powerful country in the world, you need to learn to rule and advise.” That football kid can eventually decide on his own “Y’know what? I’m a mediocre player, and I don’t even really like it. I’m gonna do something else.” Adolin can’t, not with the conscience Evi (and later Dalinar, sure) instilled in him. The Shadesmar sequence directly addresses this: Adolin can wrap his mind around picking up other duties, but deciding to abandon one is, to him, an alien concept.
Dalinar on the men he permanently maimed:
“You told me everyone was fine.”
Galinar on his daughter:
“Jasnah is fine”
Nothing disturbing in that, nothing at all. . . .
@36 Scath
I think you’re onto something about Cultivation and Adolin. She cultivates, investing in people and the present in a way that may yield a good outcome later, but no guarantees. For her, the investment in the present is a good in and of itself. So, it would be completely in character to give Adolin the chance to become the person who might be able to help a dead spren even if it’s a real longshot even if that means blocking her spren from something they might otherwise do, bonding with a potential radiant.
@Gepeto:
I said “successfully” became a Radiant for a reason. Several people (as you say) started the process but nobody seems to have gone beyond the First Oath while bonded to a deadeyes.
I know plenty of people who use words like “My inspiration” when talking about their children. I’m not sure why you find that surprising.
@aggie1, @RogerPavelle: Correct, Rayse is imprisoned on Braise, another planet in Roshar’s solar system, and that imprisonment is clearly weakening. He’s manifesting on Roshar, for one.
@Scáth: my memory is not perfect, thanks for correcting.
@41 Ellynne
Exactly. I feel like Cultivation has her fingers in many a pot. I theorize that Glys being “corrupted” by Sja-anat was “allowed” by Cultivation. Basically I think Cultivation has been, and still is “planting seeds” (yes pun intended), to subvert, and oppose Odium from behind the scenes. I think Taravangian is playing out Cultivation’s plan without realizing it and will be revealed at the crucial moment to land a decisive blow against Odium just like what happened with Dalinar. The reason she would allow Glys to get corrupted, is it would aid in bringing one of the Unmade onto Team Honor’s side, and also use Renarin as a weapon to upset Odium’s future sight which would be a great hit to Team Hatred. I could see Cultivation using Adolin to revive Maya (with some help from Bondsmith Dalinar) to show the other radiant spren that are against the humans that the pain of the past can be healed. Learning how to restore dead spren would result in a massive surge of bonding with the dead spren, and could potentially bring the current Releasers, Stonewards and so on over to Team Honor which would be yet another massive blow to Odium.
@42 Carl
No prob.
@38: Yeah… Maybe. I think you are right in saying we cannot discount this possibility but let’s just say I wouldn’t write as full theory based on it ;-) This being said, I definitely think the bond Maya now has with Adolin would steer away potential spren, but before Shadesmar? Big maybe.
On sons fighting for their aging fathers: I think a distinction needs to be made in between caring for your aging parent and being willing to give out your life in exchange for your still healthy, still strong father as you believe he is the better person. Dalinar is just not in a position where he needs his adult son to care for him, he is older, true, but his age has not, as of yet, been a limiting factor. In fact, Dalinar was still actively fighting a few months ago. In this optic, appropriate caring would be Adolin lending his gauntlet to Dalinar, after the Tower battle, because being younger it’d be easier for him to go without it than for Dalinar. Inappropriate behavior is Adolin jumping, unarmored on Szeth, being willing to lay dead if it means saving Dalinar. Inappropriate behavior is Adolin saying his father is now a God and he isn’t worthy of walking in his light or Adolin stating it is better to endanger his life than Dalinar’s as Dalinar is the most important man. It might be true on a meta-narrative perspective, but as a parent, I always cringe when book characters seem to think their children’s life aren’t worth more than other people’s life.
A good example of a father/son relationship which starts as “troubled”, but resolves itself in a very satisfying way would be Tamas/Taniel in the Powder Mage trilogy. Tamas stating he cares for everyone of his soldiers, but one is just more important than the others (his son) is exactly what I keep waiting to hear Dalinar say.
This being said, I do agree both Dalinar and Adolin have put each other on a pedestal. If Dalinar seems to be willing to accept Adolin isn’t the man he wanted him to be, I have not seen any signs Adolin was willing to move Dalinar down from his pedestal.
@39: Yes, Lyndsey. This is another line of argumentation I have occasionally used to depict the Dalinar/Adolin relationship. Dalinar does view Adolin as his “redemption”: a boy to be everything he wish he were, but believes he isn’t. Instead of working on himself, bettering himself, trying to reach an ideal he cherishes, Dalinar just gives up and decides he will instead watch his boy be this man he wish he were, but never seem to want to make any effort to become. At least, not until a lot of water runs under the bridge.
I also think Dalinar’s words in WoR are rather telling: “I always needed strong examples to grow, but you, you were good from the start.”. This was Dalinar reinforcing Adolin’s purity: Adolin does not need life lessons because Adolin is already perfect. Adolin knows no hardships because Adolin has already reached this ideal Dalinar has placed on him.
Ah there is so much to say on this relationship! One of my greatest satisfaction in reading Oathbringer was seeing Brandon put the very argumentation I have had for years onto the pages of the book.
And yeah, the linebacker example is spot perfect. I wonder, how does it usually end for the linebacker who grows up idolizing the father? I guess the one who actually turns out liking being a linebacker just develops a closer relationship with his father, but how about the one who’s doing it because he feels pressured? At what point does it all blow away?
@40: And yet Adolin does abandon this duty. I loved how he reflects on never having wanted to be King, believing it must be because he felt it would ruined his life only to realize, nope, this isn’t the reason. The real reason he never wanted to be King was he thought it would cement those expectations Dalinar placed on him, he’s be forever locked being someone he never were or worst, he’d fail Dalinar by not being able to fake long enough he is the man he wants him to be.
And now Adolin is the Highprince. Am I the only one who remembers how Adolin had stomach cramps over the idea of becoming Highprince so soon in WoK? And a few weeks later he is fine with it? I think not. He’s only fine with it because the alternative is King.
@42: Dalinar brings it up to another level that’s why I comment on it. When you leave for maternity, others will usually tell you: “Have a nice meeting”. I never understood. Meet who? Your baby? I didn’t get it until it was explained to me: “You are not just going to have a baby, you are going to meet a new person.”.
That’s why I am bothered with Dalinar: he never tried to “meet Adolin”. He just used him as a blank slate to mold him into what he wanted, he never bothered with who he was.
That’s also why I feel Dalinar has crossed a line here which far exceeds modern day parents saying having children helped them bettered up. You can draw inspiration within your children while still having a healthy relationship, but Dalinar isn’t drawing on Adolin in a healthy manner, IMHO.
Gepeto @44:
There is a new WoB that says that:
“And one of the correlations between orders of Knights Radiant is people who overcome, persist, and push through very difficult trials.”
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11007
So, if being a Highprince is going to be as difficult for Adolin as you suggest, it could only help him with his bond to Maya ;). Though, personally, I think that his distress in WoK had mainly to do with the fact that he would have had to force his father to step down in order to become one. Still, he’ll have big shoes to fill, particularly since Jasnah will also probably want him to be her overall military commander, since he is skilled, experienced and somebody whom she can trust.
BTW, thinking back on Kaladin’s relationship with Lirin, there was a bit of the same thing going on – what with Lirin’s determination to make Kaladin into a Karabranth-trained surgeon – something that he regretted not having had done himself and Kal’s admiration for his father. It was not as extreme and was tempered by early disillusionment, but still… Kaladin even has a portentous name as well, to mark him as the bearer of his parents’ hopes, while Tien had a more normal darkeyes one and was clearly not the focus of his parents’ expectations.
Anyway, a couple of other things that I wanted to mention in connection with this chapter:
Bashin provides a counter-point to Moash’s claims that nobody likes a confident and outspoken darkeyes. I really hope to see more of him and of high-nahn darkeyes in general in Book 4, to get some objective idea concerning their position in society. Ditto the low-level lighteyes and the differences in status between these groups.
Particularly since there is another recent WoB that confirms the theory that I personally considered to be highly unlikely – namely that Kaladin is distantly related to Queen Aesudan(!):
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10909
And then, there are tantalizing hints of how Dalinar spent the years between the final battle for unification and the previous flashback with pregnant Evi. He was, apparently, traveling around Roschar and, as we will later learn, visited Azir and Purelake during that time. Was Evi with him during these trips? And how come that the countries which he graced with his presence weren’t disquieted by his sudden interest? Was he traveling incognito?
I agree with the thought that Gavilar becomes worse with the retelling. He certainly doesn’t appear to care much for either Navani or Jashna. Was Elhokar already born when Jashna was ill? That could have affected his development also.
I think there must be something connected with the captured spren Gavilar had and Jashna’s “lunacy”. Theory: That spren was attempting to bond with Jashna and that is how they were able to capture it. Since it was of Odium it harmed Jashna both by being what it was and by being taken from her.
@25, @46: that’s a really interesting theory, that Jasnah’s lunacy and Gavilar’s messing with the Voidbringers / black spheres are connected. That means Gavilar had been at this for a long, long time prior to his assassination.
Simliar to how Adolin is about to have a rude wakeup call regarding his hero-worship of Dalinar, Dalinar might be getting a similar sort of thing with Gavilar.
@45: I did read this WoB after I wrote my previous posts. I would say, in light of this additional piece of information, it does appear as if Adolin never went through enough trials to be deemed interesting to other sprens. By this, I don’t mean to infer he hasn’t been through any hardships, but it may be he never saw his trials as… well… trials. Adolin’s entire inner monologue is geared towards him not accepting trials, not allowing them to stall him, not believing they actually are trials, not acknowledging they event exist. You can’t overcome what you aren’t visualizing as a problem. Or it may be he never tried to really face what seems to have been his greatest trial: accepting who he is, rejecting what Dalinar has made of him. Removing himself from Dalinar’s influence. This could be where his real hardships lie and, if this is the case, then he hasn’t really begun facing them.
Ialso thought becoming Highprince might be another hardship. While it is true, back in WoK, he didn’t want to push his father into early retirement and he did feel responsible for Dalinar wanting to abduct, Adolin did state not really wanting to be the Highprince, at least not until many more years. He says similar concerns with being King, the whole “I will no longer be able to enjoy life” motto which turned out being a lame excuse to cover up for his inability to figure out what he wants for himself. Thus, I do not think him accepting to become the Highprince will go as smoothly as implied. I feel Adolin was put in front of two bad choices and chose the lesser one of them. He didn’t want to be the Highprince, but when placed in from of needing to be King, it suddenly didn’t seem like such a bad option. And yeah, being the Highprince when you have self-worth issues when you father you idolize and view as a God stands right behind you can’t be easy. Will Adolin really get to be the Highprince or will the Kholin brightlords be constantly looking over his shoulder to see if Dalinar approves of his decision making? He’s not Elhokar, he can lead, but I think anyone who feels slightly intimidated by Dalinar would struggle leading when he is around.
This being said, I am not convinced Jasnah will make a good queen, but I am convinced she will be A Queen. She will not suffer from Dalinar being around, he won’t try to influence her and she is strong, confident enough not to listen to him and to be her own ruler. I can’t say the same about Adolin.
Of course, my impressions may be wrong. It could be Adolin will not struggle to adapt, but I think it would make sense if he did given the narrative we read do far. I do agree Queen Jasnah may ask Adolin to be her military commander though we do know he doesn’t view himself as one, he doesn’t believe he has those skills. I would also argue Adolin doesn’t really have the experience to be Alethkar military leader: there are men more experienced then him (General Khal and every single one of his sons for instance, all older and more experienced than Adolin), men who saw real war, not this pseudo-war they had on the Shattered Plains. Could this be a hardship? Hard to tell.
On Lin and Kaladin, yes you are right. I thought of the parallel this week as I was running. There definitely is a parallel to be drawn as Lin too wanted Kaladin to follow into predetermined footsteps to fulfill his own fallen dream. Kaladin too was given a name full of meaning, Kaladin too loves his father very much and Kaladin too felt his father was pushing him towards a path he wasn’t sure he wanted to take.
There are few distinctions however. Lin’s desires for Kaladin were very obvious, concrete and tangible: be a Karbranth trained surgeon. He had started training Kaladin from a young age and was encouraged by his son’s aptitude. The narrative said Lin would have trained Tien too except Tien was afraid of the blood. In comparison, Dalinar’s desires for Adolin are obscure, undefined and more akin to daydreaming than pragmatic: be honorable, always follow the rules, but just the rules I deem important, be loyal, be strong, have all of my qualities none of my defaults and the one single quality I found within your mother, but not too much of it as I still need you to kill if needed. Hence, Lin was focused on wanting Kaladin to choose a given profession: he was willing to accept Kaladin was the man he was with his own strengths and weaknesses. Dalinar was focused on wanting Adolin to befit a predefined image of what he perceives as perfection. His expectations are directly tied to who Adolin is, they want him to have given qualities, no defaults. Dalinar didn’t just want Adolin to be Highprince which would be more akin to Lin, he wants him to become Highprince while embodying everything Dalinar thinks is important.
Finally, another important distinction is Lin does realize Kaladin is not him. He does acknowledge Kaladin may have other dreams and he does give him the leeway to make his own choice. Dalinar never did this with Adolin because Dalinar never bothered to know his son. Even by the end of OB, he ends his narrative saying “Adolin was not the man he thought he was, but he could forgive him for this?”. I don’t know if Dalinar did indeed forgive Adolin, I suspect he really did mostly because Brandon seldom write family conflicts, but he did acknowledge not having the single idea who is son is.
On Dalinar travelling: I doubt Evi was with him as she does infer going towards the West would put her in danger.
@46: I don’t know where you got Gavilar didn’t care about Jasnah and Navani… Jasnah loved her father very dearly: she wouldn’t love him so dearly if he was not loving her back. There is nothing going from Jasnah’s viewpoint which indicate her relationship with her father was negative. Navani, she did imply all was not pink and rosy with Gavilar, but what she meant is unclear. It could be his dreams of grandeur which got to her, towards the end.
I don’t however think Gavilar didn’t care about his family. He died leaving words for his family to continue his work.
@47: With Dalinar finding out Gavilar had a black sphere too, I do think it is possible he will have a wake-up moment where he realizes his brother was not as heroic as he remembers him. I do hope Adolin will receive his own wake-up call and stop worshiping Dalinar. Both narratives could indeed mirror one another.
@46 Goddessimho
Now I do not have in book references to confirm their birth days so take this with a grain of salt, but the Stormlightwiki, and the coppermind both list Jasnah as being born on 1139 and Elhokar as being born on 1147 which would be an 8 year difference. I feel like it was mentioned in a prior re-read of chapters that Jasnah was 11 or 12 when she was locked in the dark room, but after a quick search I could not locate it. Assuming all these points are correct, then Elhokar would have been 3 or 4 years old at the time. I could see this being something easily hidden from him, though she being gone for who knows how long due to her “lunacy” could have contributed to their relationship (although not being negative as per WoB), they certainly were not close.
Just so I am on the same page, do you mean the spren you posit Jasnah originally bonded was a full on voidspren, or corrupted like Renarin’s spren Glys? Although I agree Gavilar could have potentially experimented on Jasnah, I personally do not prescribe to your theory that Jasnah was already attracting/bonding a voidspren on her own, but it is a very interesting theory. I wish you luck with it! :)
Dalinar: How do you contain it? This excitement?
Gavilar: I let the emotion be my reward for the work I have done.
Yes. Notwithstanding the fact that Evi did the work here, this acknowledges that even a wholly positive emotion can be painful and frightening, but a person can choose to embrace it. Or I’m projecting and Dalinar is afraid of letting any emotion overwhelm him because he just got reminded that surrendering to the Thrill can be so damaging.
@50: This is one chapter which convinced me Dalinar could have changed at an earlier time. The fact he is able to both acknowledge he has control issues and a dependence over the Thrill combined with the knowledge investing into positive emotions does chase it away does lead me to believe Dalinar could have fight it back. He needed not to murder everyone at the Rift to stop feeding his inner monster neither did he need to have his young son offer a bottle to figure out his behavior is indeed harming his family.
I agree with this week’s commentary on the need to give Dalinar some redeeming qualities and I agree, for most readers, the character retained his very high capital of sympathy despite his gruesome actions. I unfortunately seem to be within the minority of readers who still cannot feel pity nor much sympathy for Dalinar. The fact so many people had to die just for this man to start changing keeps on making me feel very negatively for his character.
Hence, yes I do think this chapter was meant to show, in parts, how positive emotions could have helped Dalinar had he want to have them. I don’t know if it is fear or anything else, but the fact remains Dalinar refused to embrace the positivity preferring to stick to his old ways.
This truth made his character less sympathetic, at least, to me as a reader.
On the side note, for those who are interesting within Adolin/Maya, a recent WoB stated Maya would have probably chosen Adolin had she been alive. This is great news as it means Maya is not “stuck” with Adolin and needs to work with an unsuitable candidate to be revived: instead it implies Maya indeed did choose Adolin (in Shadesmar when she was the most aware of him) despite her limited conscience.
On another side note, another WoB put the nail into the coffin of the love triangle. Brandon confirmed Shallan had made her choice and wasn’t going to change it. Though I have seen some readers argued this convinced them more than never that Kaladin is the real end game (and that Adolin will surely die), I personally thought it had a pretty definite sound to it.
I know there are those who comments/reads here who’d be happy to here about those two WoBs.
I have a question about the Jasnah and the assassins, was she ever seen with them out side of the Words Of Radiance prologue? Because I may want to reread it for context, but I wonder if BRandon is doing another bait and switch with us again. Making Jasnah someone who puts on a hard front and thinks about, and Considers harsh methods alot, but rarely has the abilty to go through with them. I bring this up because IF I remember that scene correctly, and I have yet to reread it so I may be wrong, but Jasnah was just asking them for information, and wanted to know about any job offers they got, so that she had a chance to match or raise them. With the way Brandon Misdirects its POSSIBLE that if something like that came up she could offer to buy them out and arrange for safe passage elsewhere, turn them into a body guard, etc. This may not seem logical to you but if you think of it in terms of intelligence, counter-intelligence (given how Shallan as been acting as a spy you can see the parallels) and so on, you don’t generally get many people on your side by doing them dirty. It may work for a little while, but things will ALWAYS come back to bite you in the end. It’s what history has shown. That’s why you should try and do right by people. just because you are CAREFUL (one of the words of the elsecallers) and keep your options open. Does NOT mean you should USE those options.
Also I am beginging to wonder if the way that people can only bond a single spren is a problem? I have heardpeople have talked about how the Stormfather tends to reflect Dalinar’s rigidity back at him, but in a world where PERSPECTIVE matters. I have to wonder if having multiple spren be able to get together, and share thier opinions with each other, if they needed to bond with a human to do so might be helpful? I know Brandon said that it’s theoretically possible but the spren wouldn’t like it. But that sounds like the kind of vague wording that leaves things open for change in the future.
OR I could be theorizing out of butt again.
@52 BenW
It is a little bit of both. Jasnah does have a standing offer to all assassins that if they come forward to her about any contracts they are given on her and her family, she will meet and exceed the offer to prevent it. However, when she met with Lyss (I believe that is her name, the assassin also known as the weeper), she did have two envelopes prepared. One envelope included money and instructions to assassinate Aesudan, and the other was to watch her. Jasnah was going to give the former, but then changed to the latter. It seems she perhaps should have carried it out after all given how Aesudan turned out, but that is a ripple in the pond that we cannot predict. Now having said that, you are right. We have not seen Jasnah actually actively use assassins on screen, so she could be doing exactly what you say. Be willing to use assassins, but not actually have used them. Though there is what Mraize said about claiming she acted first against them. Then again as I have said in the past, we have no idea how that action took place. She could have been defending herself, defending someone else, dropped into the situation, or actively pursued it. So much mystery. Her book can’t come soon enough!
@53 BenW
As you said, Brandon has confirmed bonding multiple spren is possible, just very difficult due to the spren’s own personality, as well as the oaths the radiant would need to maintain. But that does not preclude it from becoming a plot point considering we now have a listener who is a radiant, and a radiant who bonded a corrupted radiant spren. So might be interesting to see where that leads :)
I think if someone were to bond two spren at once, it would be easiest if one of the two was a cryptic. Lightweavers just have to be honest with themselves and that seems like it would go pretty well with the other oaths we’ve seen.
@55 soursavior
Hmm, that is an interesting idea to play around with. What orders of spren could potentially get along with their oaths to bond the same person? I agree, Lightweavers would allow for a degree of flexibility. I think windrunner and edgedancer spren could get along with their oaths, though the windrunner later oaths could potentially clash (if it does in fact have to do with letting people die vs edgedancers remembering the forgotten). Skybreaker and Elsecaller spren perhaps could work. Maybe Elsecaller and Releaser. I could see Stonewards and Willshapers. I could also see Bondsmiths and Skybreakers. I could see Truthwatcher and Edgedancer (which in a way we have seen as it has been confirmed both were checking out Ym). Now all this conjecture is based loosely on the divine attributes for each order which I made sure to confirm with the ars arcanum shown below
Windrunner – Protecting and Leading
Skybreaker – Just and Confident
Releaser – Brave and Obedient
Edgedancer – Loving and Healing
Truthwatcher – Learned and Giving
Lightweaver – Creative and Honest
Elsecaller – Wise and Careful
Willshaper – Resolute and Builder
Stoneward – Dependable and Resourceful
Bondsmith – Pious and Guilding
@48 Gepeto let me jump in on the conversation about whether Gavilar cared for Jasnah. I have a passage that doesn’t prove the negative but it does show they weren’t always super close. From TWoK chapter 45
@57: Good catch. I forgot about this quote. I must however mention Jasnah stating she felt guilt towards her father’s death and the future flashback where she reads the Way of Kings to Dalinar, crying, at Gavilar’s funeral. Those two scenes do seem to speak of a relationship born out of loves, so while it may be they weren’t very close, it does seem as if they loved each other.
I would argue Jasnah probably never was very close to many people including her family. Adolin neither isn’t particularly close to his father, though it is undeniable he loves him very much.
I think it is possible for characters to care about their family members without being close to them. We also see this with Jasnah and Elhokar: she does care about her brother, but she isn’t close to him nor does she seem to have much of a relationship with him. She cares though he seems to be at odds with Dalinar.
I have a question? Do we know what the next Sanderson book up for a reread is after we finish Oathbringer?
Bellaberry @57:
This seems to be one of the things from WoK that was retconned in OB, though. There are several such changes, mostly focused on when Gavilar evolved from a simple warlord/conqueror, timing of the final battle for the reunification of Alethakar, and when exactly Dalinar obtained and began obsessing over “The Way of Kings”.
In WoK all these events happened much later in the timeline than in OB – Gavilar only changed to something other than “a consummate warrior” a couple of years before his death, Jasnah had only tracked Gavilar’s last words to “The Way of Kings” book and sent a copy to Dalinar half-a-year before his and Adolin’s narratives started, etc. And IIRC, it is specifically mentioned that the incident where Dalinar almost killed his brother happened 10 years prior to WoK, rather than 28.
Also, Jasnah’s prologue in WoR shows that she, at least, loved her father very much. And while it is not necessarily any kind of evidence about Gavilar’s own feelings, Jasnah doesn’t strike me as somebody who would love a person who disregarded her and payed her little attention growing up.
@60 Isilel
Could you provide page number and quotes to your references? It would give me a better picture. Thank you!
Glad to see your view of Jasnah has gone from careful to more towards her being caring. Jasnah is awesomeness! Btw I would like to add regardless Jasnah’s relationship with Gavilar, it does not preclude Gavilar from experimenting on her or having hurt her. She did say after all “It had taught her that people she loved could still hurt her“. We also do not know if the dark room is the sum of all her memories of that traumatic moment. What was done to her by Gavilar or who knows who else could have been so damaging, all she remembers of it is the dark room and screaming till her voice is sore. I have no problem believing Jasnah could be autistic, but I am not sure her autism is connected to her being thrown in a dark room. Renarin has seizures that are violent enough that he is completely incapacitated but he was never thrown in a dark room to our knowledge. Though there is an autistic spectrum and not all exhibit the same symptoms, in an unenlightened society, I would think screaming hysterically non stop would be treated similarly to someone convulsing uncontrollably. But that’s just my own interpretation. So many mysteries of Jasnah to dig in to. So much depth. Can’t wait! :)
Carl @@.-@ – “Do you hate all fictional military officers as well? It is literally their job to send people off to die (and that responsibility is destroying Kaladin).” I don’t hate all fictional kings, nor all fictional military officers. It’s just that the realistically-written ones, when I get too far into their heads, make me kind of dislike them. I can understand them, and I can acknowledge the necessity of putting the good of the nation ahead of their personal preferences; that’s actually necessary to be a good king. It’s just that I can’t help disliking them for it sometimes. I wrestled with this a lot on the Warbreaker reread, too, seeing the decisions Dedelin had to make concerning his children and his kingdom. I found Dedelin more sympathetic than Gavilar, because at least he acknowledged the complexity of the decisions, and actively struggled to reconcile his role of father with his role of king.::shrug:: Just an observation on my views of humanity as portrayed in fiction.
Ben @59 – No idea, frankly! :D It will depend on how much time there is between finishing this reread and when the next SA book comes out. Also, whether he comes out with another SA novella in between. A lot of people are agitating for a Mistborn reread, but that’s a HUGE project. I’m personally thinking that we might want to do Elantris, since that would be shorter, and would have the advantage of “starting at the beginning” of the Cosmere publications. We’ll see where the interest lies when we get close to finishing this.
@62 Thanks for Answering. I am voting for Elantris for the same reason. Imagine if we tried to do Mistborn only to find out we had to stop the reread after book one? It can be done, but since we have another option it might be best to take that first. ESPECIALLY since Brandon had said the Elantirs sequels will need to be written before the back half of Stormlight if I remember correctly. That’s another reason to do so.
I second an Elantris re-read!
I’d love an Elantris re-read.
If we are VERY LUCKY, maybe we can fit in post credits scene from the 10th anniversay edition, and/or The Hope Of Elantris and/or The Emperor’s Soul. (aka the other works set on Sel) BUT even if we ONLY get the BASE Elantris I will be a happy camper.
I’m also interested in Elantris for all the reasons above.
Related, is there anywhere with just the post credits scene for those of us who can’t afford to buy a second copy of Elantris right now?
@66 BenW
Oooo, good idea. Doing The Hope of Elantris and Emperor’s Soul with Elantris I think would really fill out out the experience.
@67 soursavior
Unfortunately I do not know of a place where you could read just that scene. Perhaps your local library may end up with a copy and you can read it there? Or conversely you could go to a Barnes and Noble or some such bookstore, and just pick it up and read it then. Then put the book back on the shelf. It is a short scene.
@68 I second the library
I may actually own more SF and F than my local library, but it’s worth pinging the extended network. I’ll give it a shot.
I’d also love an Elantris re-read (it’s been so long since I read it) and I’ll be honest – I think it’s kind of scummy when authors put ‘exclusive’ material into new released editions. There’s no reason to have multiple copies of the same book on principle and I hate feeling like I have to keep shelling out more money (I don’t because I try to stick to a budget) to get the ‘complete’ story for something I’ve already read. It’s such an obvious marketing ploy.
Regarding the post – I’m close to being caught up and all this speculation has just made me even more eager to figure out what was going on with both Jasnah and Gavilar in the past, and if they are related. Gavilar especially I have a lot of questions about his motives – good guy, bad guy? Who knows!
Interestingly, since I was just reading all those chapters/commentery, Dalinar’s fixation on Adolin as being the pure/honorable person he can’t be reminds me a little bit of Moash’s projection onto the parsh and his upset that they end up ‘like us’. It’s something I find pitiable in that the person clearly recognizes something fallen in themselves and feels hopeless about it, but if it goes no further can result in an unhealthy kind of attachment.
@71:
Those are exactly the words I would use to describe the Dalinar/Adolin relationship as seen mostly from Adolin’s perspective (Dalinar certainly does not see anything unhealthy with his relationship with his son). Unhealthy attachment. Adolin recognize there is a clash in between what his father (and everyone) perceives of him and who he truly is but he knows not what to do about it.
I love the parallel you have drawn in between this and Moash having a similar behavior with the Fused. He wants them to be better than Alethi because he needs to believe there is an alternative. Something better. Just like Dalinar needed to believe he could be better. Neither Moash nor Dalinar try, at this point in time, to be better persons, they just attach those values to other people. Moash to the Fused, Dalinar to his infant son.
It’s unhealthy for both Moash and Dalinar to put their desire for change on the shoulders of other people as opposed to try to built their own agency. It’s unhealthy to think they need not to change, other people can change for them. It’s also unhealthy for Adolin because he becomes shoe-horned into his father’s expectations without any consideration for what he wants for himself nor who he really is. He gets told there is only one way to be, anything else is wrong.