Greetings, fellow rereaders! Buckle yourselves in and prepare for some fun as Aubree, Alice and I continue the debate on Moash from last week and witness two more members of Bridge Four find their places in the group.
AP: Along with a very special tuckerization!
L: ::blush::
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. Once again, there are the usual minor Cosmere spoilers in talking about the epigraphs. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
L: Okay so, since I wasn’t here for the last one, let me lay out a little of my overall thoughts on Moash here before we really get going. I love to joke about the f*** Moash thing. LOVE it. (No really, at last count my “F*** Moash” badge ribbons at JordanCon stood at 13, Sanderson got a laugh out of it.) At this particular moment in time, I despise him for what he did to Kaladin and what he’s about to do to Elhokar’s family—especially his infant son. However… I have an undeniable weakness for anti-heroes in fiction, and I have to face the facts—I despised Jaime Lannister, too, and now he’s my favorite character in A Song of Ice and Fire. Sanderson is an accomplished enough writer to be able to pull of a very satisfying heel-turn for Moash, and I don’t doubt that if he does, I’ll be singing the bastard’s praises when it happens. I can also appreciate that he’s a very well-written character and he justifies his own actions well to himself. But, like with Katniss Everdeen, I can appreciate a well-written character while still hating their guts.
For now.
AP: Yes, absolutely! Free Moash! It’s only with the help of lighteyed allies that darkeyes like us can overthrow the corrupt Alethi caste system. Support the slave rebellion on Roshar!
L: Right. Yes. Free. That’s absolutely what I meant. ;)
AP: Also y’all, this fun squabble at JCon is why I’m guesting on the blog. If you haven’t attended before, you should seriously consider it!
AA: Just to throw in that third POV… I really don’t like anti-heroes, but like Lyn, I’m more or less expecting Sanderson to write a convincing redemption for Moash. When it happens, I’m sure I’ll be all teary over it and all that, but for now, I really wish he wouldn’t. Not unless it includes taking personal responsibility for making choices.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Moash; Skar
WHERE: Revolar; Urithiru & Narak
WHEN: Moash: 1174.1.5.2 (same day as Chapter 43); Skar: 1174.1.8.1 (2 weeks after the first Bridge Four chapter, 4 days after Teft’s)
Chapter 45: Moash arrives with his Voidbringer captors to Revolar, where he’s dumped into a slave pen with the rest of the humans. He finds an old caravaneer friend who brings him in to meet some revolutionaries, but Moash is immediately turned off by the fact that they’ve chosen a lighteyes to lead them. He allows his old friend to be beaten and leaves to go volunteer for the hardest slave task he can.
Chapter 46: Skar arrives at the Oathgate with the rest of Bridge Four for some training, not yet having been able to breathe in Stormlight. He worries about the possibility that he might be left behind, then sits down and has a heart-to-heart with Lyn, helping her to succeed where the other scouts have failed and breathe in Stormlight on her own. As he heads back over to chat with Rock, Rock points out that he, too, is glowing.
The Singing Storm
Titles: A Revelation; When the Dream Dies
In that moment—surrounded by the pettiness that was his own kind—Moash had a revelation.
He wasn’t broken. All of them were broken. Alethi society—lighteyed and dark. Maybe all of humankind.
L: Ugh. I mean… he’s not entirely wrong, there are definitely some major issues with this society. But Sanderson’s laying the seeds here for Moash to turn to the Voidbringers and that’s like saying “Yeah, this Mussolini guy’s pretty bad. Let’s work with Hitler instead!”
AP: That’s not a terrible way of putting it. But also, it’s all he knows. Alethi society is awful, and I’m not surprised he wants to take the first chance to get out.
“As long as you keep trying, there’s a chance. When you give up? That’s when the dream dies.”
L: This is such an important message and something that I feel like so many of us need to hear at so many points in our lives.
AA: I just have to say that every single time I read this, I get choked up. That line is so good.
Heralds
Moash’s chapter shows Vedel in all four spots. Vedel is associated with the attributes Loving and Healing, is the patron of the Edgedancers, and has the role of Healer.
L: Man. This one is a total head-scratcher for me. Maybe because Moash is remembering those who have been forgotten—namely, his family? That’s the only thing I can think of.
AA: I have to think that this is one of those cases where we’re seeing the inverse attributes. As he observes—and to some extent, interacts with—the humans here in Revolar, there’s precious little of loving or helping one another, and as for the Edgedancer Ideals… Moash walks away from the one man who tried to help him, allowing him to be beaten because he can’t be bothered to answer a lighteyes’s question.
Skar’s chapter Heralds are Battar and Taln. Battar’s attributes are Wise and Careful; she’s the patron of the Elsecallers and has the role of Counsellor. Talenel is known as the Herald of War, has the role of Soldier, is associated with the attributes Dependable and Resourceful, and is the patron of the Stonewards.
L: If there are attributes that better encapsulate Skar in this chapter than Careful and Dependable, I don’t know what they could be.
AA: We see, repeatedly, Skar being the Counselor, as well as being resourceful in the ways he finds to teach others, and dependable in the way he supports the others even when it feels that they are leaving him behind.
Icon: Not Bridge Four; Bridge Four
AA: The contrast between these two chapters is almost painful; Moash reflects on his unworthiness to be part of Bridge Four, and continues his downward path, while Skar feels that he’s unworthy but strives to help others anyway.
Epigraph
As the waves of the sea must continue to surge, so must our will continue resolute.
Alone.
Did you expect anything else from us? We need not suffer the interference of another. Rayse is contained, and we care not for his prison.
AA: So Autonomy continues to claim self-sufficiency, refusing to allow anyone to interfere with any of her worlds or personae, and refusing to care what happens to anyone else or their worlds. It seems to be in character!
Also, this seems as good a point as any to note that the multi-persona act fits pretty well with the intent of Autonomy: you create any persona you want to present for a particular world or situation, and that way you really don’t need anyone else for anything. You can even be company for yourself.
Stories & Songs
Why hadn’t they used their powers to Lash him upward and make him lighter, as Kaladin would have?
L: A good question…
AP: I’m really interested in seeing more about the differences in his Stormlight vs. Voidlight work, especially in relation to the surges. Unlike our newbie Knights Radiant on Team Human, the dudes on Team Voidbringer should know how to use all their powers since they have had countless reincarnations.
L: They’ve definitely got a leg up on the competition in regards to knowledge.
AA: I suspect Aubree is right, that it’s a difference between Voidbinding and Surgebinding. I tried to figure out if it could be that they only have access to one of the Surges, but according to the Ars Arcanum description of the Lashings, that doesn’t fly. So… Voidbinding.
There’s been a fair amount of speculation on whether they’re accessing the same Surges as our Radiants. Since they’re all on the same planet, it seems like the same physical principles should apply to both forms of magic. On the other hand, perception is a huge aspect of magic in the Cosmere. It could be a difference in how they see the same Surges, or it could be that they simply see the physical forces differently, and access a similar but distinct aspect.
The air was thinner up here at Urithiru, and that made running harder, though he really only noticed it outside.
AA: I had to mention this, if only because they ought to notice that the air is thinner at this altitude. But also, it’s more noticeable out in the open than it is inside the tower. Does that mean there’s another aspect to the tower-fabrial that’s still sort of working, increasing the air pressure and/or oxygen content indoors?
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Legion: The Many Lives of Stephen Leeds
Bruised & Broken
The people of the eaves, some had called them. Men and women who hovered close enough to civilization to get out of the weather when it turned bad, but who never really belonged.
L: I feel like this says a lot about the way that Moash views himself. Always an outsider, never truly belonging.
AP: I think that’s spot on. Prior to Bridge Four he didn’t have an in-group. His only family seems to have been his grandparents, which is why their loss was so devastating. It also indicates, to me, that his betrayal of Bridge Four was at least in part because he really didn’t know how to deal with having a support system.
He’d always been met with hostility, no matter where he storming went. A youth like him, too big and obviously too confident for a darkeyes, had been considered a threat.
…
A man on his own, a man you couldn’t control, was dangerous. He was inherently frightening, just because of who he was. And nobody would ever let him in.
Except Bridge Four.
L: On the one hand, I sympathise with his thoughts on being treated like an outsider. Like most of Bridge Four, he endured prejudices based on something outside of his control. However… I feel like his attitude probably didn’t help anything, either. He could have taken efforts to make himself more personable, to try to form connections despite himself—but I don’t get the impression that he did. It looks to me like he just internalized all that anger and threw it back as snide condescension.
AP: I think there is some merit to that. But also, some people just aren’t good at connecting to others.
L: That’s true. I’m SUPER extroverted and empathic so I’m looking at it from my own perspective which is admittedly biased.
AP: I know I really empathize with this part because I’m non-conforming in a lot of ways. Replace “darkeyes” with “woman” and this quote could be about me. I could totally change everything about my personality to try to fit in better in certain social scenarios, or I can be myself and people can grok that or not. But making myself less because some people don’t like it when women are assertive and project confidence, that’s a non-starter.
AA: A different way of looking at it, though, is the civil attempt to blend a little without making yourself something you need to think of as “less.” While it’s true that not everyone can do this well, it’s a bit egotistical to refuse to moderate something you know frightens people. It’s pure arrogance to make that refusal and then hate people for not wanting you around, which is what Moash seems to do.
AP: I strongly disagree with that characterization. The attributes that he says make people afraid are ones that he cannot change—his size and eye color. And he is told that he shouldn’t have confidence, not because it isn’t earned based on his abilities, but because he is a darkeyes. What is described here is how a bigoted society responds to someone who doesn’t meekly submit to assigned class roles.
L: I’m with Aubree on this point. If we were discussing aspects that he had direct control over then he could have made some efforts to “compromise” to fit in, but there’s nothing you can do about your size.
AA: No, you can’t change your size or your eye color, but you don’t have to walk around glaring at everyone, either. Demeanor is something you can control, and I don’t believe for a skinny minute that Moash is the only large darkeyes in Alethkar.
This was who he really was. The man everyone looked at with distrust, pulling their children tight and nodding for him to move along.
L: He’s letting them define who he is based on their initial impressions rather than taking steps to try to show them that they’re wrong. I think this is what annoys me so much about him in these early chapters—it’s just a lot of “oh boo hoo, poor me” when it was his own poor decisions that landed him here to begin with. He bears no responsibility for them in his own mind because he’s too wrapped up in his own anger over everything else.
AP: I really like the insight into his state of mind. He has internalized much of the prejudice of Alethi society. I’ve had POC friends tell me similar stories of self-doubt. That they are treated so poorly for so long that they wonder if they deserve it somehow. So much of how Moash is written shows such a great insight into how low power individuals are treated in oppressive societies. I also think it’s important to recognize that here he accepts that he failed Bridge Four. He says he deserves to be treated like this because he failed the one group that let him in, so he doesn’t deserve to be let in again.
L: That’s a good point, he does admit fault here. Touche.
AP: He does the same several other times in this chapter. That he failed Bridge Four, so he doesn’t deserve any better than his current lot is the thread running through this chapter.
They smiled in a friendly way to Moash, and he gave them an old caravaneers’ salute—close enough to a rude gesture that everyone else mistook it—and strode in the direction they’d pointed. Typical. Caravaneers were a big family—and, like a family, prone to squabbling.
L: Belying your earlier assertion that you never belonged anywhere except Bridge Four, aren’t you, Moash?
AP: Yes and no. Having a professional association, while nice, doesn’t replace a support system. I’d really like to see his time with the caravaneers to see if he was really part of the group, the substitute family, or if he was still not really connected.
“I just need to be who I was.”
“That makes as much sense as the storming Stormfather playing the flute, boy. But you wouldn’t be the first to go off to those Plains and come back not all right. No you wouldn’t. That’s the Stormfather’s storming own truth, that storming is.”
AP: We touched in this last week too, Moash doesn’t have a strong self identity. Having failed Bridge Four, he’s trying to go back to something familiar. But this whole sequence is wild without Moash’s inner monologue to give it context. He isn’t able to express himself clearly verbally even before we get to him meeting the lighteyes. This whole conversation does not make sense to anyone not inside Moash’s head.
“They tried to break me. Damnation, they did break me. But then he made me again, a new man.” Moash paused. “I threw it all away.”
AP: This is the one for me. This encapsulates the Moash arc so far. He was broken, and rebuilt by Kaladin & Bridge Four. And here he recognizes that he made the choice to mess that up. When people say that “Moash never takes responsibility for his bad choices”, well, he does.
L: Ah, but does he? Admitting it and taking RESPONSIBILITY for it are two different things, I think. Words are great, but it’s your actions that define you, and over and over and over Moash refuses to just… do the right thing.
AA: I’m coming in a bit late to this conversation, so I’ll just interject that my continual complaint against Moash (which is being refined as we speak!) is along the line of what Lyn just said. Moash accepts that he failed Bridge Four, but he continues to just blame it on “who he is” without taking personal responsibility for his decisions. His attitude reflects a fatalism, a refusal to accept agency, that makes me angry.
AP: I think I’m comparing it to our favorite addict, Teft, who keeps coming up with excuses to keep using firemoss while Moash admits his failure. He’s definitely not in the “make amends” stage any time soon though.
L: That’s a fair point, but we’re also dealing with apples and oranges here—addiction and depression (or whatever Moash has), while similar, aren’t the same.
AA: I don’t think it’s depression, though it bears some similarities.
“I always do that,” Moash whispered. “Why must we always take something precious, Guff, and find ourselves hating it? As if by being pure, it reminds us of just how little we deserve it.”
L: We? Okay there, Smeagol. Looks to me like you’re the only one with this issue, but you just keep telling yourself it’s everyone if that makes you feel better about yourself.
AA: It seems to me that he doesn’t want to make any effort to change, and he assumes that everyone else does exactly the same things he does. What I can’t tell is whether he really believes it or if he just wants to.
AP: I think he does believe it. Moash is incredibly self-destructive which is a key feature that makes me believe that like many other characters, Moash has some degree of mental illness. I’m not a psychiatrist, but at various points he shows significant signs of depression, passive suicidal ideation, executive dysfunction, and PTSD. He knows that Bridge Four was a good thing, and he messed it up for himself.
“He wasn’t broken. All of them were broken. Alethi society—lighteyed and dark. Maybe all of humankind.”
…
He wasn’t the exception, always ruining what he was given. Men like Kaladin were the exception—the very, very rare exception.
AA: Putting these two statements together, I can’t tell if he honestly thought he was the only one who screwed up his life by being a jerk, or if he believed that everyone did. Or if he just didn’t know what he really thought, and used whatever assumption got him off the hook at any given time.
AP: I don’t see how he thinks it “gets him off the hook”. He doesn’t make excuses anywhere in the chapter for his betrayal of Bridge Four. There’s no “someone else made me do it”. I take this at face value that he thinks this.
AA: It’s not so much that he’s blaming someone else, as that he swings between “humans are all jerks by nature” and “I was just born this way so that’s what I do.”
“Have that one beaten, and post a competent guard next time, Ked, or you’ll be next!”
Old Guff cried out as they seized him. Moash just nodded. Yes. Of course. That was what they would do.
L: ARGH this makes me SO MAD. He COULD choose to be a better person, here. He COULD decide to stand up for what’s right, to stop them from beating his old friend, to try to take the reins of leadership away from those who are undeserving of it, like Kaladin would do.
But he doesn’t. He takes the path of least resistance, like he always does. The fact that he sees these injustices and can just… just stand there and not try to stop them is what really makes me hate him.
AA: I think what made me angry was that I kept expecting each step to be the one where he decided he had to do something about it—he had so many chances, and I really thought he’d do something. And he didn’t. I was almost starting to pity him, but by the end of the chapter that was fading already. He’s getting plenty of pity from his own head. He can’t have mine, if he’s going to be that way.
L: This said (she says with a hefty sigh)… I recognize this as the beginning of an arc. You can’t start from the top. You have to start from the bottom and work your way up. Even Kaladin had a time when he’d given up. Sanderson’s probably going to make me love Moash eventually but for now? He’s the worst.
AP: It’s interesting to see how y’all read this, because to me, this reads as a trauma reaction, where he has executive dysfunction. He isn’t ignoring the questions, he’s just unable to answer. Just a few lines before it says that he was overwhelmed. He’s not consciously choosing to not help Guff. He is not in a headspace where he can clearly hold a conversation, much less defend Guff from an undeserved beating by people who shouldn’t be in charge of anything in the first place. He also doesn’t resist as he’s dragged out of the tent himself. And he doesn’t take the path of least resistance, his next step is to go sign up for the most difficult job available. He is still self-sabotaging.
L: I’m not entirely sure if I buy that this is a trauma reaction vs pure, simple apathy. His whole chapter has been a downward spiral of “I’m not worth it, nothing’s worth it” so this final moment struck me as a sort of “why bother” thing. I also didn’t really get any textual descriptions that keyed me in to psychological trauma—but it could be that Sanderson was just being really, really subtle.
“You’d think,” Teft said, “that our high and mighty leader would have gotten here by now. I swear, Kaladin acts more like a lighteyes every day.”
L: Poor Teft. I know from experience how you can come to resent people who are trying to help you to overcome your addiction.
Were these people, these new recruits, going to start glowing and take his place in Bridge Four? Would he be shuffled off to other duties, while someone else laughed with the crew and got ribbed for their height?
L: This is so real and such an awful feeling. When you do find that clique, that group of people who you feel comfortable with, the fear of being ousted is so, so horrifying. (It can’t be just me who feels that way…)
AA: Nope. Not just you. The older I get, the less it bothers me, but it’s always been part of my mentality. I could relate to Skar a lot in certain aspects of this chapter.
“What did you do?”
“Nothing,” Skar said. Which was the problem.
L: Oh, poor sweet Skar. You did do something.
“And the fact that you are glowing with Stormlight right now is not at all consideration in decision?”
L: ::squee::
AA: Absolutely!
Squires & Sidekicks
Skar was the only one who—despite two weeks of practice—still hadn’t figured out how to draw it in. Well, except for Dabbid and Rlain.
AA: I can’t quite figure out what it is I want to say about this. I feel so bad for Skar at this point, but even so, “well, except for Dabbid and Rlain” is such a dismissive afterthought it just grates on me.
L: I agree. Poor Rlain. I think of all of Bridge Four, he’s the one I feel most badly for.
AP: Completely agree. When talking about characters who live on the edges and don’t have an in-group, Rlain is at the top of the list.
“Knowing what we’ve suffered, it’s insane to think that we wouldn’t need something to get us through the day. The moss isn’t the problem. It’s the storming world going all crazy. That’s the problem.”
AP: Man, addiction logic is rough. I’ve never been addicted to anything myself, but this mirrors what others have told me about the addiction process, that you will make any excuse to justify using.
L: Yup. Accurate.
Teft was an addict. Drehy had struck an officer. Eth had been caught planning to desert with his brother. Even simple Hobber had been part of a drunken brawl.
L: I love finding out these little snippets.
AP: Me too! I love that all of the characters are gray. They are imperfect. It makes them more real. Which I realize is a ridiculous statement when talking about characters with magic glowing powers.
L: One of the things I love most about well-written fantasy worlds is that they’re taking real people and putting them in fantastical situations. It’s why we can still relate to them. While we may not be riding dragons or battling Voidbringers, we can still see pieces of ourselves in these characters and wonder, “how would I react to this? What does this say about me?”
AP: I also want to note that I think it’s important that we see the various ways that members of Bridge Four are broken in the chapter right after Moash has his revelation that everyone is broken in some way.
“Everyone knows that we’re in a new world now—a world where rank and eye color don’t matter.”
L: And, reading between the lines, gender roles.
AP: This is also quite striking right after the Moash chapter, where even though everything had changed, there was a facsimile of the old order still in the prison camp.
L: Yup! It’s a direct contradiction to Moash’s thoughts about how nothing really changes. People are breaking free of their predefined roles left and right.
“I keep thinking, maybe I don’t belong here. If you haven’t noticed, none of the women have managed this. I kind of forced my way among you all, and nobody asked—”
L: There’s that pesky imposter syndrome again.
AA: So relatable. I want to hug her.
“Why do you want to be a Windrunner?”
“Because I want to help! I want to do something other than stand around, waiting for the enemy to come to us!”
L: I love seeing this for so many reasons. I adore Lyn (obviously) and her breaking of societal norms in order to become a soldier. I love Skar doing what Windrunners do—helping others, without even realizing that what he’s doing is exactly what he’s telling her to do. The camaraderie of Bridge Four is so beautiful and special, and I don’t blame Lyn for wanting to be a part of it, or Skar for fearing that he might be excluded from it.
She met his eyes, closed her fist around the gemstone, and breathed in with a sharp, distinct breath.
Then started glowing.
She yelped in surprise and opened her hand to find the gemstone within dun.
AA: I’m pretty sure I did a lot more than yelp when I read this. There was a good bit of whooping, hollering, and fist-pumping up in here. Speaking only for myself, of course.
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The Ruin of Kings
Places & Peoples
“You’re the slaves now.”
AP: This is heartbreaking, because it means the Parshmen were cognizant of how they were being treated by the humans while in dullform, but unable to do anything about it.
He’d spent the trip here alternately assuming he’d be executed or interrogated. Instead, they’d made a common slave of him? Even in Sadeas’s army, he’d never technically been a slave. Assigned to bridge runs, yes. Sent to die. But he’d never worn the brands on his forehead.
AP: So this is interesting, and it’s a deliberate technique used by hierarchical societies for control. The lower class is quite bad off, but not as bad as the lowest class, so they are more compliant because things could be worse. Also, I fell into this trap last week when I said Moash was a slave in the army because he wasn’t, but only technically. He was paid, but not enough to live on because he wasn’t expected to survive, and he had no freedom of movement. But it was still more than the Parshmen had under the Alethi. So he sees it as worse to lose class status than to have just been killed.
He lingered here, listening to a parshman ask for volunteers to pull wagons of supplies with the army when it marched. Apparently, there weren’t enough chulls.
…
Caravaneers. The long staffs were for slapping chull shells while walking beside them. He’d worn an outfit like that many times, though many of the caravans he’d worked had used parshmen to pull wagons instead of chulls. They were faster.
AP: This contrast is great. We can see the disconnect with how the Alethi thought about the Parshmen as being basically animals.
L: I also find it interesting to note that as of now, Moash doesn’t have the same reactions to the parshmen’s sudden liberation that Kaladin did. For all his thoughts about freeing slaves and liberty, he never really stops to consider that the parshmen had it even WORSE.
They put him in charge, Moash thought, spotting other lighteyes. They wore fine clothing—not silks of course, but well-trimmed uniforms. Exceptional boots. There was food aplenty set out at the side of this chamber, while those outside scrounged and did heavy labor.
AP: Reading this part always got to me, and made me so angry. Paladar is highlighted as a greedy and corrupt man, and he is still at the top of the hierarchy the humans set up inside the prison camp. That lends credence to his revelation above, that everyone is broken. And why I think it’s sincere.
L: Yeah, this is upsetting for sure. I think people in general have a tendency to gravitate towards established power systems rather than attempt to break out of their predefined roles, so it makes sense—but I can see how Moash wouldn’t really understand the underlying psychological and societal things going on and just see “lighteyes still in power? BROKEN!”
AA: On a slightly irrelevant note, Paladar is (or was) regent to Highprince Vamah, who always had his ways of being exclusive. Even at this point, he’s one of the two Highprinces who refused to go to Urithiru, and instead remained at the Shattered Plains to try to carve out their own little “kingdom” there. In this particular scene, I can’t help being reminded of a news article I read yesterday, about the leader of a nation whose people are literally starving in the streets while he publicly enjoys expensive steak dinners. It’s completely typical of humanity, and frustrating as Damnation.
They’d found a building full of artwork of a style that baffled the Alethi scribes. Parshman art. They’d been painting even while they fought a war. Just like … well, just like ordinary people.
AA: Callback to WoR, where the Listeners were diligently painting during their free time, trying so hard to attract creationspren in the hope that they could discover another form. It’s a bit melancholy to remember it, and know just how much wasted effort it was. Highly amusing, though, that the Alethi scribes are baffled by the style and keep trying to understand it.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“That’s the Stormfather’s storming own truth, that storming is.”
AA: Back on the beta, someone commented, “Wow, Guff really IS bad at cussing!” To which someone else’s response was, “A fun lampshade of what happens when you have one word for all swears.” It made me giggle. Also, it’s way true.
L: I have no storming idea what the storm you’re talking about, get out of here with your storming self. (This is reminding me of the f-word monologue in the Boondock Saints…)
“Tell the merchants when they next come through,” Kaladin said, “that the Knights Radiant are not their doormen.”
L: On the one hand, this is amusing, but on the other… starting to get a little big for your britches, aren’t you, Kal?
AA: On the other other hand, there aren’t nearly as many Knights Radiant as there are merchants right now, and that handful has plenty of different things to be doing besides running the Oathgate.
AP: And on the fourth hand, it’s yet another example of changing roles. The former darkeyes Knight Radiant is pushing back from being ordered around.
There had been only one logical way to get the equipment he needed for his application: He’d stolen it from the Blackcap quartermaster.
L: ::gigglesnort::
“So I’m supposed to accidentally but deliberately breathe something in without breathing, but not try too hard at it?”
“Doesn’t it make you want to string the lot of them up in the storms?”
L: Classic.
AA: I loved this whole exchange between Lyn and Skar. Pure gold.
Also, someone on the beta was shipping these two. Just sayin’.
Weighty Words
“Drehy, you used a quarter of a Basic Lashing, by Kaladin’s terminology?” Sigzil continued, still making notes.
“Yeah,” Drehy said. “I… I know the precise amount, Sig. Strange.”
L: That’s interesting. Does knowing the precise amount make him an anomaly?
AP: I really like these insights into the magic system. Sig’s data collection is a great way to do an info dump for the reader.
“We have no proof that we squires are a step toward becoming full Radiants. We might always be your support team—and in that case, it’s not individual skill that matters, but your decision. Maybe that of your spren. You choose them, they serve under you, and then they start drawing in Stormlight.”
L: This is a good distinction, and an important question. Do all the squires eventually move on to become full Radiants, or do some—historically—stay squires? We know that the Knights Radiant of old HAD squires, but we don’t know if they stayed that way forever or if it was just a stop-gap, a sort of… training period. (Do we?)
AA: We don’t. For that matter, we don’t even know if the squire of a Windrunner can only become a Windrunner, or if he could become, say, a Stoneward. I find it mildly amusing that in context, Teft is still hiding the fact that he’s bonded a spren; he’s still pretending that he’s just a squire like the rest of them.
Meaningful Motivations
“He felt at the Bridge Four tattoo under his shirt, on his left shoulder.”
AP: So I think this is really important, and why I think we may get a different arc than people expect. Moash has his tattoo of Bridge Four even though he took off the patch. I’m waiting to see what happens with this. If it “heals” through Stormlight/voidlight or if it get otherwise obliterated, then I think we are less likely to see a redemption arc. But right now, he has a constant reminder of who he could have been.
L: Narratively speaking, that’s a really good point and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you’re right.
Quality Quotations
“That makes as much sense as the storming Stormfather playing the flute, boy.”
* * *
“Even Rock beat your time, and he was skipping like a girl the last third.”
“Was Horneater dance of victory,” Rock said from near Leyten. “Is very manly.”
* * *
“Ha!” Rock said. “You could hit my face, Skar. I have seen you jump very high. Almost, you seem as tall as regular person when you do that.”
With that, we’ll sign off. Be sure to join us again next week for Chapters 47 and 48, as we finally get inside Jasnah’s head and have yet another visit with Moash. Meanwhile, we’ll see you in the comments!
Alice is feeling her age and can’t think of anything clever to say. Lies of the Beholder is out, though, so that’s cool.
Lyndsey is in the final days of setting up the haunted attraction she works for, which means a lot of stress and fake blood on all of her work clothes. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Aubree thinks pop tarts are sandwiches.
Seeing Skar and Lyn breathe in stormlight was nice and all, but I’m still holding out for Rlain. It’s kind of amazing how much attention Kaladin showered on that batch of random Parsh in Alethkar compared to how little he’s paid to the Listener who is nominally his friend.
@1 – Apparently Brandon was aware of Rlain’s lack of presence in the book and did it on purpose. So there’s definitely something in store for him.
@1 We do see later that it is possible…
Rlain’s absence in the latter part of the book is totally intentional by the author, but I don’t think that’s the point of soursavior’s comment @1. In this time of the Bridge Four novella, when both Kaladin and Rlain are here, we see little or no interaction between the two, despite Kaladin’s concern for the parshmen as a whole and his little band in particular. It IS a bit odd. We’ll have to RAFO whether that aspect was intentional, though I suspect it was, and I hope to see Kaladin reflect on it himself. (Not that I enjoy seeing Kaladin kick himself for his failures, but I’d like to see him note the missed opportunity.)
@2, 3, 4
You are correct that my intent was talking about the characters making poor choices, rather than suggesting that Brandon had made a poor choice. I hope it doesn’t bite team Radiant on the posterior next book, but that seems like a slim hope.
@@.-@ To be fair to Kaladin, we don’t really get in his head in part 2 so we don’t know that he was or was not ignoring Rlain.
I whole heartily agree with Lynn that there is a huge difference between admitting something, and taking responsibility for something and I think that difference is a large part of what defines Moash and his character arc. He can admit something is broken, or that he made a mistake, but he doesn’t take responsibility for it and confront what he did was wrong. There are always mitigating factors in his mind that say it is something or someone else’s fault so he himself is not wrong. Therefore he does not need to take responsibility. He is not at fault, the world is. I think this says that Moash has an incredibly intense and deep seated hatred for himself, but because of how strong that emotion is, he does everything he can to avoid confronting it. So it is everything else’s fault
I took his moment with Guff as his true breaking point. To me it was the moment for Moash to get a “peek behind the curtain”. In this moment he feels he finally understands. This is how things work for humans. Period. This is the natural order. The default. Like he said, in his mind Kaladin is the exception, and an incredibly rare one at that. So in his mind if you have a irreparably broken machine that once in a blue moon actually does what it is supposed to do, you don’t keep it around. You throw it out and get a new one. This is humanity in a nutshell for him and because of that, they don’t deserve the planet. Anyone else would be better. So he sides with the parshmen. I think this also supports his self hatred as it allows him to lump himself in with the horribleness of humanity, but still absolve himself of responsibility. “All of humanity is crem, so that is why I am crem. I didn’t do anything wrong. I was just born this way”. As I said before, to him this is him redeeming himself. He is fixing the “problem” that is humanity. He has something to be proud of at last. All of this is of course incredibly twisted, but also incredibly interesting!
I will need to dig, but I believe Sanderson mentioned in a WoB that perception regarding the surges matter in how the radiant themselves employ it. So while with Kaladin it is instinctual, he just knows he increases his gravity “this much” to fly faster, while Drehy having a structure of units to define, can then apply it to his use of the surges. Much like how the two ardents cause the spren to fixate a size when measured, so too I feel this applies to surges. I will add the WoB once I locate it.
edit: so found the WoB and it wasn’t as I recall. He just said they would have the conversation, but didn’t confirm anything. I believe my theory is accurate, but it is definitely only a theory
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87-white-sand-vol1-release-party/#e5761
@OP
He’d always been met with hostility, no matter where he storming went. A youth like him, too big and obviously too confident for a darkeyes, had been considered a threat.
…
A man on his own, a man you couldn’t control, was dangerous. He was inherently frightening, just because of who he was. And nobody would ever let him in.
Except Bridge Four.
…
AP: I strongly disagree with that characterization. The attributes that he says make people afraid are ones that he cannot change—his size and eye color. And he is told that he shouldn’t have confidence, not because it isn’t earned based on his abilities, but because he is a darkeyes. What is described here is how a bigoted society responds to someone who doesn’t meekly submit to assigned class roles.
I’m somewhat reluctant to accept Moash’s explanation for why he is not accepted.
I know a lot of people that decide early on in an encounter that they know the other person’s motives, when, in reality, they have misjudged the situation and the person. I know I have been guilty of that.
And Moash’s perspective on most things seems colored by his need to not take responsibility. Like @7 scath already stated, their is a difference between admitting something and taking responsibility for it. And even admitting seems like a new thing for him, IMO.
Notice how this prefigures Dalinar’s big insight at the end? It’s another example of the ketek structure of this story. Skar uses the same insight, that the next step is the important thing, to inspire a woman to become a Squire. At the end, Dalinar uses the insight to inspire a woman to become a Knight Radiant. As I mentioned in a previous comment thread, similar action but the second one amplified. (Both women get Stormlight from an emerald, too.)
It recently occurred to me that the parshmen and kandra are two versions of the same Cosmere thing, sapient beings whose soulwebs were torn to damage their connections to the Cognitive Realm. In both cases, the damage can be patched by Investiture from bad-guy Shards, Ruin and Odium. Not identical, of course, but as similar as Awakening and Surgebinding in my opinion.
Reading this week’s essay I noticed what I believe is one important difference between Kaladin and Moash: Kaladin is highly educated. Did Moash even know the permitted glyphs?
Re: Autonomy – Has anyone drawn a parallel between her creating avatars of herself vs. Shallan’s coping strategy of “becoming” different people? Is there a similarity? even a partial one? Interesting.
Re: Moash – If I have to make huge excuses for a character, and keep making them over and over and over again, to justify what they do/don’t do, … yeah, no sympathy. IRL too many people make too many excuses in their self-absorbed pity parties, and it’s not very difficult to find other people who’ve faced even bigger challenges and even horrors in their lives, then allowed themselves to become MORE (specifically, I’m thinking of Holocaust survivors I’ve known, who survived such trauma then went on to greatness that benefitted the whole world). I don’t hate Moash enough to not want a redemption arc for him, but I’m not gonna cut him slack I don’t personally feel he deserves at this point: no “participation trophies.”
Re: Skar – No, Lyn, you’re not the only one to be troubled about losing a tribe you finally belonged to. I wonder if Brandon would ever include a character whose story line DID go that way? – because they’d naturally be less of “a part of the action” overall, so less to tell. Something to ponder.
Re: Teft vs. Moash – So… “The moss isn’t the problem. It’s the storming world going all crazy. That’s the problem.” is “mak[ing] an excuse to justify anything” but “He wasn’t broken. All of them were broken.” somehow isn’t exactly the same thing? This is where I have difficulty and trend toward Lyn’s 13 badges (which was storming brilliant & thx for sharing a link to the photo!).
Thanks as always Alice, Lyn, & Aubree for inviting us in to your banter!
“A youth like him, too big and obviously too confident for a darkeyes, had been considered a threat.”
This is coming from him, and should be taken with a grain of salt as most people tend to soften their own bad attributes. “too confident” really sets off alarm bells. An outside observer would use the words cocky, bullying a-hole.
From his own description and his personality I have always pictured him as your typical teenager with a chip on his shoulder that never grew up. Loom, glare, be a dick to everyone, selfish, no self awareness, but always the victim.
aggie1 @10 – I noted a resemblance between Bavadin and Shallan a couple of weeks ago: “S/he’s even worse than Shallan, apparently! The whole concept makes me question her sanity, and wonder whether she’s Splintering herself or … what.” But I haven’t delved into it further than that, to see how far the parallels can be drawn. I did think this week, when I made the comment about how Bavadin can even be company for herself, that that’s something Shallan can’t really do, because she has to switch between her personae. On the other hand… there’s the scene near the end of the book, when she’s preparing for the wedding, she creates illusions of Veil and Radiant and has an actual conversation among the three of them. If she doesn’t resolve her issues, she is going to be able to keep herself company. Which is kind of not where I’d like to see her go, frankly!
Several of you are saying the kinds of things I’ve been thinking a lot, too. Moash will (at this point) acknowledge that he did something wrong, but he won’t accept that it was his own decision and he could have done something different if he’d wanted. He’s been fatalistic for a long time – he believes that he just is what he is, and can’t be anything else, and so everything he does is just because he was made to be that way. He never bothers to try to be better. This chapter, with his “revelation” about Alethi society (based on a very limited sample), marks his willing movement from fatalism into nihilism.
@8, Wookster125, @11 Stormy:
I actually agree with AP, to an extent. In our real world, there are plenty of examples where how you look puts you at a disadvantage. I don’t see any reason why we would doubt Moash’s reasoning here overall. As a confident darkeyes, he wouldn’t be accepted. We’ve already seen one example earlier – Lirin. Sooner or later, someone gets offended. Now of course, Moash’s reluctance to take responsibility is his own fault here, but it’s easy to imagine at least some of it isn’t inside his own head.
Jujitsu Magic. Stormlight seems like saidar in that you have to surrender or not try to have any grasp of it. Do or do not, there is no try. Be in the moment, don’t think just do. Surrender to Master, etc. No deep thoughts, just comparing. As far as Moash goes, there are things you can’t control. Being 6′ 2″ and 240 lbs. with SRBF you can loom and look threatening without trying. I have had people turn and go the other way with JUST a look in my direction. It has happened enough times for me to be aware of the cause. The difference between Moash and I (except he is fictional) is I am self aware and realize what is going on, (also I like to think I am not a complete jerk). As with anyone’s journey, it really comes down to personal choice over things they can control, i.e. the difference between Moash and Dalinar.
How good is Alethi vision that they can even see someone’s eye color at a distance anyway? (Yes, I know they’re probably actually just judging based on class signifiers in clothing and adornment.)
This week’s commentary is probably my favorite so far as it tackles a topic which resonates deeply within myself. I’ll admit I completely glossed over Moash’s lack of belonging upon both my first and my second read. I’ll admit, upon my first read, I felt Moash’s narrative was so similar to Kaladin’s, I had little interest in it. I’ll admit, upon my second read, I grew more sympathetic towards Moash, but I had still not done the complete work of looking into every facets the character had to offer.
Hence, I did miss how Moash struggles to belong, how he yearns for a camaraderie he can only realised he had within Bridge 4 now he has lost it. And of course, it is all his fault. People are going to argue he should change, he should honed the side of himself which makes it harder for him to belong, he should cover up his aggressiveness and/or his passion because they make others uncomfortable, but how much of it is reasonable and how much of it is changing what is in fact his core personality?
Hasn’t anyone ever been in a situation where they feel what they are is just not good enough? Not right? Not acceptable? Hasn’t anyone been at lost at tying to figure out what is wrong with them? Why others seem to hate them so? Why others seem to be able to pass the exact same message without generating the same hateful reactions? Hasn’t anyone feel they do not belong no matter the circumstances?
Lyndsey speaks of her fear of being ousted from a group of people she feels comfortable with. I think we can all relate to that, but does anyone relate to having been actually been ousted from a group of people they thought they could potentially belong to? Does anyone know how it feels to know YOU are responsible for it because YOU either said or did things others will never find acceptable without even realizing you were making a mistake? Does anyone knows how it feels to know not one, not two, but many people have acted/told you how inadequate you were? To know one, two, many people cannot be simultaneously wrong nor mean? To know it implies YOU are the problem even if you can’t see it?
Does anyone know how it feels to know you are probably in the wrong more times than not and yet not knowing how to change it? Not knowing how to feel more “accepted” while still sounding like yourself? Or worst knowing if you were to change, then you wouldn’t be the same person hence going back to thinking who you are is just… not right. This is an endless rabbit hole to fall into… it has no bottom and probably no happy endings, only bittersweet ones.
I read a lot of this within Moash’s character arc. He knows he is wrong. He knows it is his fault. He knows he has no one else to blame but himself, but he doesn’t know where to go from here and onward nor what to change. And perhaps he does not want to change who he is on an odd chance other group of people may find him more acceptable. Perhaps he has been thrown so often, perhaps he tethered on so many groups without ever feeling like belonging to still want to try.
Take responsibilities? And then what? Have an epiphany? To which end? There is no one who cares anyway and even if they were to take him back in, sooner or later, they throw him out again because he will say the wrong things or adopt the wrong behavior or just be too much himself. Whichever.
All this to say, I can see why Moash is willing to walk down the path the Fused are laying out in front of him, why he seems not to know how else to behave, why having people, any people, be willing to take him in is seducing. I can see it. It does not make it right, it does not remove any responsibility from Moash’s back, but I do think it makes him more tragic.
Moash never belonged. He had Bridge 4, but he lost them before he got to realize he actually had a real place with them. And it is all his fault. Now he has nothing, no wonder he holds onto his revenge, his hate and his anger… He has no reasons to let them go. They are all he has left.
And yeah, I can oddly enough relate to that.
On Skar, I loved his chapter. He was my favorite among the bridgemen viewpoints mostly because I got the feeling he was trying. Well, I guess they were all trying, but Skar brought it to another level and I thought this sole perspective on how it feels to be the sole non-squire (easily transposable to being the sole non-Radiant) was much needed. Too bad Brandon didn’t extrapolate on this theme as I found it very interesting to read.
One minor note, being a runner myself, I was super interested within Skar’s running test here. I however raised an eye brow at Teft offering a chouta to Skar after his effort…. I don’t know many runners who want a Big Mac right after a sprint or a race. That was odd.
@9: Good point….
@10, @11: Yes, there is a given amount of victimization within Moash. There also is a great deal of victimization within Kaladin and also Renarin, especially Renarin. Anyone who goes through a hard time will eventually fall back towards feeling like a victim: it is only natural. Moash is a misfit, he never found a place where to belong unless he was willing to compromise on core self-defining elements. How else is he supposed to feel? How does one even begin to change when the very things you need to change are the ones which are you?
Of course, no one likes a victim, no one likes “pity parties” unless they come from someone having lived through enough horrors it becomes acceptable or someone others agree is vulnerable enough to make a go for it.
Still, it is within human nature to behave this way. And the fact someone has lived through “worst” is going to make very few people feel better about themselves.
@15 soursavior
It is commented in Way of Kings that darkeyes are so dark to be almost black, while lighteyes (even the non-radiant) do have a slight glow. So from a distance it would be even more dramatic in my opinion. I will pull up the quote regarding the dark eyes and light eyes later this week
Do any of the rest of you remember that (really) old children’s song (which our parents hated), “Nobody likes me, Ev’rybody hates me, That’s why I eat worms…”? Theme song for Moash. Maybe if he liked other people more (or liked them at all), they would like him too. It took me way too many years but I finally learned: I don’t have to compromise my personality or core values in order to belong – I just have to care about people and like them a little, and more and more of them will respond. Conforming to what society expects and sitting alone by oneself snarling are not the only 2 options; maybe working through that will be part of Moash’s redemption arc.
Great chapters. I feel like Skar and Lyn all the time. Especially when I first joined fb groups like the storm cellar. What if they realize I’m not smart? Or not whatever enough? Or irl: what if I’m too nerdy or sarcastic? Too Mormon, or not Mormon enough? And for me, keeping a dream going helps a lot with that. Or a big project.
As for Moash… I don’t want him to be redeemed at this point. I know he’s as broken as all the others but he’s making choices that lead him continually farther away from where he could have been. As far as Dalinar went and then came back I know it’s not impossible, but the likelihood of him redeeming himself is so small right now. (But Sanderson is the master… will RAFO.
@11 Stormy,
the original A youth like him, too big and obviously too confident for a darkeyes
and your From his own description and his personality I have always pictured him as your typical teenager with a chip on his shoulder that never grew up.
– that’s funny, because I almost never remember how young Moash actually is (unless I read you wrong and you imagine him just acting as a teenager, in which case, sorry). I know he’s almost as young as Kal, but for some reason, I can never remember it and always picture him 5-10 years older. And then am constantly surprised when his age is mentioned again. Remembering he’s so young-ish almost makes me give him SOME slack … (Let me think about it. Nope. Still not there.)
On a more positive note, awww, Skar. So happy for him and Lyn. And poor Rlain. The only thing making me happier about him right now is thinking of the last lines of his POV chapter.
The difference I really see here is between Moash and someone like Skar.
Moash is all “I’m not worth it,” or even worse, “it’s all my fault.” If he knows it’s his fault then storming CHANGE, the lazy idiot. Self-awareness without the desire to take active steps to move on and do better, or worse, taking it as an excuse to do even worse, is what I hate most about Moash. I feel that many addicts exhibit this behavior- on some level they accept they are at fault and need to change their behavior, but refuse or dont want to do so – but Moash ISNT an addict. He isn’t influenced by Odium. He doesn’t have depression – at least, not like Kaladin. It’s all him. I’m so tired of him. He is just the worst.
On the other hand, Skar is worried that not being Radiant or a Squire will lead to him being excluded. Moash would probably have started excluding himself, but instead Skar decides to talk Lyn through her own fears. He decides maybe helping others and being a counselor of sorts might be good enough. The difference between the selfishness and selflessness here is very illuminating.
I think Moash understands that he failed the other members of Bridge 4. Or at least that is how Moash thinks the other members of Bridge 4 would view Moash. I believe Bridge 4 is more forgiving of their fellow members short comings than Moash believes: at least until he kills Elhokar. That may have been the point of no return. I cannot say Bridge 4 would never forgive Moash (even after killing Elhokar). They forgave Teft. His addiction caused him to sell his Bridge 4 jacket. That jacket was used when Bridge 4 was attacked and led to the death of a few of the members of Bridge 4. If they will forgive Teft when his actions led to the death of some members of Bridge 4, perhaps some in Bridge 4 would forgive Moash.
Ultimately, I think Bridge 4 will not forgive Moash because I think his actions run counter to the Windrunner principles. Teft was an addict – a disease. There was something – an illness – negatively influencing Teft. Moash, on the other hand, chose to make the decisions he did. Yes, Moash claims that humans are beyond redemption. It is their nature to break oaths and harm each other (so Moash believes). Yet, I think Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan, Teft and others show that you can improve if you want. You have to take the first step and keep trying to progress. One may have setbacks, but that is OK. As long as there is an overall effort to keep moving forward, one can improve. This ability to improve if you want is what Moash does not realize. It is always easier to accept things as they are and not try to improve yourself. Moash feels that humans are bad, they will always be bad, so why try to improve. He will just fail as he has in the past.
I believe Alice made this same point. But she articulated it better and more succinctly.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@18: If only it always were as simple… but what happens when your natural personality is off-putting to other people? This is what I read in Moash. No matter what he does, others will always struggle to like him. As I said, I can relate to this. I can understand where he comes from.
@21: Changing is often easier said than done. Why isn’t Moash changing, the lazy idiot? Why can’t he do better? He doesn’t have to deal with addiction nor depression, so what’s his excuse for failing?
Problem is, things often aren’t as simple. What some of us see as obvious is not obvious to Moash. Change? How? Change what? What happens when to change you need to short-cut part of your being because if not, then it will come back galloping? Ah why are you talking so much, people hate it. Ah why aren’t talking at all, people think you hate them. Ah, why can’t you hit the middle ground and talk just the right amount, say just the right things? Are you an idiot for not succeeding when it is so obvious to everyone else? No. Truth is some obvious behaviors are not obvious to others even if they don’t have a mental illness to justify their every actions.
The fact he does not have a mental illness to hide behind is what makes Moash’s character more compelling, to me, as a reader. It is all on him. No excuses and yet, very few solutions. It’s like being suck in a place where you know, no matter what you try, you aren’t going to succeed. Leopards do not change their spots. So why bother? As I said, I can relate to that even if I don’t agree with Moash’s decision making.
Moash tends towards different standards for himself, it’s only wrong when other people do it. He doesn’t have trauma issues, he has personality issues. Kaladin’s much worse experiences and subsequent actions don’t fit his internal narrative so it causes him some cognitive dissonance, but don’t worry. People with narcissistic features tend to acquiesce to those a few levels above until he is or she feels as though parity is nearly present, then their hero is in the way or should accept their place as a stepping stone on the path of ascendencey. Moash doesn’t just want to kill Elkohar, he wants to take his place. So Moash kills the man just as he’s on the verge of significant change (shown in the intentional follow through, Moash knew he was killing a KR) and then in his uniquely narcissistic way shows Kaladin that he appreciates how Kaladin has made it all possible through his training and investment. The internal dissonance ends as soon as parity is reached and Kaladin becomes a subject in his intrapersonal kingdom. It’s sad for Moash because Kal can’t accept the truth. Not because Moash hurt Kal. The lack of empathy and insight is so well written it’s spooky.
“Storm” is a fairly all-purpose cussword, though I haven’t yet heard a character say “Go storm yourself.” :-p
Regarding Moash, I mostly agree with Aubree, Gepeto, and others. I don’t like him, and his killing Elhokar was wrenching to see for the pain it gave all of the affected protagonists. But being in his bitter, despairing, apathetic mind doesn’t revolt me like being in Young Dalinar’s mind with its love of killing and contempt for most other things, especially opposition to killing. Even on a reread, knowing what Moash will do and knowing that Dalinar was influenced by Odium, the feeling doesn’t change much. I’m not certain I wouldn’t have thought and acted as he does if I were in his place, much as I would prefer to be like Kaladin or the rest of Bridge Four. Well, not exactly like Moash; I don’t have his physical strength or fighting ability. But selfishness, despair, taking the path of least resistance…it’s not impossible.
“As long as you keep trying, there’s a chance. When you give up? That’s when the dream dies.” Uggghhh, shaddap, Skar. I hate getting shamed for giving up on things. Look, sometimes a thing just isn’t possible for me! There are jobs I can’t do, places I can’t live, no matter how much I want them! Sometimes the price of failure is too high! You know what they say about repeatedly doing the same thing, expecting different results? Yeah.
Of course, it’s even more painful when other people tell me that my efforts to do something have all been failures and I should stop trying. I don’t onow if anyone could say something that’s actually helpful. *mentally stomps around* *throws my octopus plushie at the wall*
@15: Good point. I’m too nearsighted to see someone’s eye color unless their face is, I dunno, within a few inches of mine. And I’m short, so I can’t even look many people in the eye if they’re standing very near me. I really would have to judge by things like clothes and behavior, and make guesses that could be risky. Reason umpteen why I don’t want to live in Alethkar.
From last week’s chapters: When Moash kicked a rock and simply got a stubbed toe, I thought of Elantris. It could be worse, Moash. You could be on a different planet (and probably a different time in Cosmere history) where some people get cursed with undeadness that prevents any wound from healing, such that a stubbed toe would literally hurt forever. A clever bit of nightmare fuel, Sanderson.
@23 – You are correct, in general. Changing is easier said than done.
I disagree that this applies to Moash, however, because he was part of Bridge Four. This is a whole group of people who have hit rock bottom, who could have given up – actually, who had given up, before Kaladin came in. Then they changed with Kaladin’s leadership. They got better together. They worked for each other, lived for each other. And they still do. They still have their issues, their pasts, but most of them have changed for the better.
Moash has SEEN it, he’s experienced it. He was part of that group, he belonged to that group. He’s seen that change is possible, even for himself. And he turns his back on everything he’s seen, all the good he’s experienced.
In addition, the discussion about Moash not belonging due to having a personality that is off-putting…I don’t buy it. Bridge Four had ALREADY accepted him, personality and all. They’re an entire group of socially awkward misfits. But he’s the only one with a stick up his ass over it?
You see it as compelling that Moash has no mental illness or excuse to hide behind. For me personally, that’s why – shoutout to @25 – he can go storm himself. Moash has had crap happen in his life, but then, so has practically every main character in SA. But only he seems to be so fatalistic and determined to keep things bad for himself – and then for everyone else.
Ah I’ve ranted about Moash for three weeks now. He sucks and I’m out on him for at least the next 10 years (because that is how long it will probably take for his redemption arc to be published).
Statements about poor Moash no being belong aren’t true. He was belong. He was a member of bridge 4. He’s an outsider now, because he chose being an outsider himself. No one rejected him, it was him who put personal vengeance above everything else. Also, I don’t see any regrets from him, only apathy.
No, he never takes responsibility for his own shit, instead he always blames “storming lighteyes” or “corrupt society”. Yeah, of course. He took a knife and murdered unknown person without any reason because “storming lighteyes”. The truth is, he doesn’t even care about others, about “corrupt society”, about Alethkar. All talks about “killing the king will benefit Alethkar” is nothing but a lie to justify own actions.
Also @OP: Lyn’s Sméagol reference – I don’t know if it was intentional or not, but that’s another character I think many readers hate, and many other readers pity. I hated Gollum. He made my skin crawl and I couldn’t stand him. I wished he’d die within 5 minutes of appearing on screen – only issue is the Ring would never have been destroyed without him.
I wonder if something like that is in store for Moash…as in, having turned full evil, he does something to claim victory for our heroes at the last second, without even intending to do so.
Ah, and here is the chapter that cemented my loathing for Moash. That’s right – not his murders or attempted murders, but his treatment of Guff(?). Because here we see the truth unvarnished by any excuses that have gotten him sympathy of some of the audience. Moash goes to this friendly acquaintance for advice and help, the old man tries to provide them the only way he knows how, gets hurt as a consequence, and our PoV guy, who took out a Fused and thought that he could have killed another of the remaining 3, doesn’ lift a finger to help. He doesn’t even spare a thought for the old dude again. And this, to me, is a sign that he is irredeemable.
Gepeto, your points would be compelling in some other case, but as above demonstrates, one of the features of Moash’s “offputting” personality is extreme self-centredness and lack of empathy. Granted, some people do fit in despite these traits, either through conscious dissembling or through natural charisma, but him not being able to doesn’t evoke my sympathy as he’d just be able to inflict more harm.
His rationalizationsabout being “too big and too confident” for a darkeyes don’t pass the smell test. We have seen plenty of big darkeyes that don’t inspire reflexive avoidance in the bystanders and we have seen very confident ones as well – Lirin, Bashin, the Veden loanshark, etc. And there would have been a pretty high concentration of prosperous darkeyes and of darkeyed members of elite units, such as the palace guard, the royal bodyguard, etc. in Kholinar.
I am with Aggie1 @18 and CireNaes @24 re: Moash’s character. He immediately evoked our sympathy because he was introduced to us as in the most brutal and unfair circumstances, but the thing is, Moash wasn’t at the bottom on the heap previously, but more of an angry middle-class guy. He is second nahn and his grandparents were skilled artisans who were doing well enough to be a competition to Roshone’s businesses. Also, it is somewhat murky whether they were indeed his only family, given the brief mention of a caravaneer uncle. I kind of wonder what happened with their inheritance, actually, and why Moash waited for 6+ years before trying anything.
Concerning Moash’s age – isn’t it mentioned in WoK that he is a few years older than Kaladin? For some reason I keep thinking that he is 25. I also have a crackpot theory that he is a natural son of some highlord, who lost the genetic lottery re: eye-color, possibly even Gavilar himself, and that is in part what is fueling his perpetual rage.
I loved Skar’s character in this chapter – who, BTW, is another tuckerization of a friend of Sanderson, as I found out to my surprise, but I don’t find his background particularly plausible. He is one of the bridgemen who quickly became very good with the spear in WoK, even though here in this chapter it is revealed/retconned that more of the original Bridge 4 used to be soldiers than originally indicated. But Skar was not one of them – he seems to have been an older civilian, who, for some reason, decided that an elite unit would/should take him, a raw recruit, when they normally have their pick of veterans who have distinguished themselves in battle?! And then thought that his theft of their equipment would impress them? This seems really hare-brained and at odds with his wise counselor persona here….
Speaking of the squire-Radiant progression, it seems that among the current Skybreakers, this is, indeed, an apprenticeship stage, but maybe not everybody manages to advance to the knighthood. Among the Windrunners, in the past when the Order was at full strength, the majority of the squires couldn’t have progressed further, because the number of spren is relatively fixed, and every knight can have 40 or so squires, if Kaladin is any guide. So, only truly devastating battle casualties could have led to every Windrunner squire getting a crack at knighthood. And personally, I very much hope that becoming a squire of a certain Order doesn’t irrevocably lock you into a certain Radiancy path – it would be far too arbitrary and would preclude people from eventually bonding a spren that fits them best.
@Gepeto:
There’s a serious “food=life” theme in the Stormlight Archive. Notice how much time people spend thinking about and eating food? We get descriptions of lots of meals, and not just in Lift’s chapters. Also note that Lopen, who as far as we know has never met Lift, inexplicably substitutes “pancakes” for “destination” near the end of this book. Is Cultivation a foodie?
#22, @AndrewHB:
They don’t know that happened because Kaladin is being a mopey idiot and won’t tell them. Besterian “idiot plot” in three, two, one ….
I dislike Moash as of the end of Oathbringer, but from his POV Team Odium actually does look, if not better, at least as good as Team Dalinar. They’re giving him a fair chance based on his demonstrated ability and loyalty, which (from his POV) the lighteyes never did. Kaladin did, but Moash has special-cased Kaladin as not representing his society … and in truth, he’s right. As I’ve said in other reread installments, Odium is not unalloyed evil–he really is, in his way, more fair than Alethi society. He might even be redeemed himself, though I doubt it. We’re only assuming Cultivation is the “good” Shard because that’s how Dalinar perceives things, after all.
Ha. I never thought about Moash having similarities to Gollum. I passionately adore Gollum beyond all reason, and am not at all attracted to Moash because he’s not at all aquatic. But they do talk similarly at one point, as noted.
@30 I could definitely see Cultivation turning out to be the bad guy playing the long con
@25: Never let anyone tell you your efforts are meaningless. They say life lessons often come out when you expect them the less, they say there are a few times, within a life time, where something someone will say to you will just stick.
When I was 11 years old, I was obsessed with the idea of finding “my life lessons”, “my meaningful sentence”. Little did I know I was actually about to find it. Even to this day, I do not know if it stuck because I was so keen on finding it or if it stuck because it turned being a good advice, but sticking it did.
I was 11 and I had just flunk, for the fourth times in a row, my 7th level at my swimming class. It didn’t help my older sibling never had any problems with the same level, soaring through it as if it was a done deal from the first course. And while yeah, from an adult’s point of view, having to redo one swimming class, even for the fifth time, is not the end of the world, but from a child’s point of view, it was. So here I was crying out after the class in a mix of sadness, anger and bitterness swearing to myself I would never take swimming classes again. I was done. Why bother trying? I keep on failing anyway. Why make more effort? It yielded no results. I just wasn’t a good swimmer, teachers have said so when they failed me, for the fourth time.
That’s when a little girl came walking up to me. She was in my class. She was younger than me. I have no idea if she passed or not, I do not remember her name, but I remember her. She told me, with the candid voice only children can pull off: “You know, if you give up now, you will never pass level 7th”.
If you give up now, you will never reach your goals. The only time you truly fail is when you stop trying.
It stuck. For a lifetime. And now here I am repeating it to my own kids. I tell them it does not matter how many times they fell, what matters is how many times they get back up on their feet. I tell giving up on something you want is removing from yourself the possibility of achieving it. I tell them, as long as they have a goal, they have to keep on trying, no matter what happens, no matter what everyone else is saying.
So is it worth trying even when everyone tells you the opposite? Yes. Because everyone is not you. Because everyone is entitled to have his/her own dreams/goals and no one has any business in saying anything bad about them.
@26: Just because Moash has seen Bridge 4 reshape itself does not mean he was ready for it. Bridge 4 might have been rock bottom for nearly everyone else, but I don’t think it was for Moash. He still had his anger to deal with: it might not be the most noble of all feelings, but anger does happen. I grew up with a lot of anger inside me because of what happened with my sibling: outside observers would say I was in the wrong in being angry, but angry I was nonetheless. I still have vivid dreams where the anger blows out, explodes in ways it never did in real-life. Hence, I understand how Moash’s anger did not fade so easily, did not vanish just because one group of people was willing to take him in.
Also, what I am trying to say is while, yes, Moash was technically part of the group, it is entirely possible he didn’t feel as if he were. My take on Moash is he never realized what he got with Bridge 4 until he lost it. He was turned down so many times, the one time others were willing to accept him, he didn’t see it.
You say Bridge 4 had accepted him? Bridge 4 is a group of misfits hence, of course, it would welcome another misfit with opened arms? This is so not true… This isn’t how acceptance works. If it were, then why is it one group people having suffered from rejection will eventually, sooner or later, team up to reject someone else on criteria others than the ones they were rejected for in the first place? There was a nice scene on this very topic within the Big Bang Theory, when the boys, all former rejects and victims of bullying, team up to laugh/bully at Zack’s lack of intellect. Penny calls them out on their behavior. She tells them for people having spent a childhood being bullied, they sure could act like mean bullies too.
Moash is arrogant, confident and acts as if he never needed anyone in his entire life. I so understand why he behaves this way… People forget rejection has many facets, it is not their fault, medias always show us the same one, but sometimes, when you have been hurt, you will withdraw from others to avoid being hurt again. You will exclude yourself to avoid having to face others excluding you. Lyndsey spoke of being afraid of being excluded from a group of people she enjoys. I am speaking of KNOWING you will be excluded from any group of people, hence you do it before they get the chance to do it. This way, at least, you can pretend it was your choice all along.
In other words, everyone is a misfit to someone else. Moash was a misfit in Bridge 4, Renarin was a perfect fit. If Bridge 4 was willing to include Moash, then Moash never realized it until much too late. So yes, he had one chance and yes, he rejected it. Everything within his narrative highlights how much he realizes this. He knows.
And yes, not having a mental illness makes Moash more compelling to me, more relatable. I don’t have a mental illness either, but I sure know what it feels like to never feels like you belong anywhere, to always be the misfit, even among other misfits. To never find your place. And yes, it is easier for other people to feel sympathy when negative emotions and behaviors happen because of a reason, because of an element the individual cannot control (like a mental illness), but I have sympathy for the opposite. I am the opposite, so Moash here, he resonates with me even if he is dead wrong in every one of his decisions.
I understand his anger. I understand why he didn’t realize what Bridge 4 was until it was too late. I understand why he sinks, why he can’t find any other solutions but to keep on a path of negativity.
And I know, I know saying all of this, most will not understand. That’s OK. This is how it is supposed to be.
@29: You don’t choose what your off-putting personality traits will be. Those traits you listed, we also find them within other characters, but only find them off-putting within Moash.
Yes, Moash could be less self-centered. Yes, he could work on developing his empathy. Yes, he doesn’t read like a particularly sympathetic individual. Yes, I wouldn’t want to go have a drink with him.
Yes, I could try to be less talkative. Yes, I could work on developing my listening more and yes, I could focus on reading the non-verbal better to assess how other are reacting to my person. Yes, most people probably wouldn’t want to have a drink with me either: too stubborn, too opinionated. And that other word I will not repeat.
My point is, we don’t get to choose. Moash is a young man, mid-twenties. I too put him at 25. I am much older and none the wiser. Things always seem easy from an outside perspective. And some personality traits are notoriously more off-putting than others.
Moash’s passion-filled misplaced fury is something I can relate more closely than other characters even if I don’t agree with the path he chose for himself.
On Skar: I loved that he thought stealing equipment would give him a chance at joining the Black Caps. I do think he grew from the experience. His solution-oriented personality really worked well for me, as a reader.
@30: I was mostly commenting on the fact eating fast food often isn’t most runners next thought, after a race. More accurate thought would be: water
@30, Carl; @32, John:
Eh…no way is Cultivation the bad one in all of this. She gave Dalinar the chance to change. Shards are eventually controlled by their intent, so that’s probably more of an explanation for why she didn’t act before, even though we don’t know why. Maybe letting them grow means no interference. Harmony can barely act at all and he’s only been a Shard for a short time. Shards aren’t necessarily “good,” but Odium definitely isn’t good. He’s has killed 4 Shards, at least, and is out to get the rest.
Worth pointing out that the fairness being shown by the Fused is a lie designed to keep humans useful until they can be wiped out.
@21 Gaz
Very true. Moash can rail on and on about how unfair the world is to him, but at the end of the day if he does not take responsibility for his part and genuinely try to change internally, then nothing will change externally. That is why I think deep down Moash hates himself. That his hatred for himself is so great, he cannot bear to take the hard look inwards that such change would require. It would mean he would have to accept that a large part of his problems are his own fault. It would mean coming to terms with how much he has lost at his own hands and the long road of personal work to get back from that. It is easier and better for him to blame the world for making him this way, than to take responsibility and try to change.
@22 AndrewHB
I agree, the juxtaposition of Skar and Moash show the difference between trying and growing, vs avoidance and blaming others. I feel Brandon did that intentionally.
@24 CireNaes
I am glad you brought up Cognitive Dissonance. It is a very interesting phenomena. How people will hold onto something they believe and actually feel in their mind physically attacked when evidence contrary to that belief is presented to them. They then rationalize that belief to still being true despite the evidence, or find ways to disregard that evidence, in order to still feel secure in that belief. This leads back to my earlier point of Moash’s self hatred. He will do everything and anything to avoid confronting that.
@26 Gaz
I would also add that Moash consciously takes actions to separate himself from Bridge 4’s camaraderie. I feel he sees it, recognizes it, and chose to keep it away. The tattooing scene is a prime example. All of Bridge 4 comes together and tattoos their forehead the symbol. Even those without the brands on their forehead. Moash is the only one who didn’t. Everyone said “we are bridge 4!”. Moash chose to hide it. Like he was ashamed of it. Bridge 4 didn’t have a problem with his size, or how he acted. They fully and completely accepted him. He had an opportunity to join and be accepted, and he consciously refused it. When he then comes to reflective on it, then well its the world’s fault he is like this and rejected Bridge 4. Again going back to his deep seated self hate causing him to avoid responsibility and his twisted view of self redemption by “getting back” at those who made him this way.
@28 Gaz
That is a very interesting parallel. If that is what ends up happening, you definitely called it first! lol. I feel in order to Moash to be able to join Team Kholin once more, he will have to own up to his own actions and confront his personal issues like Dalinar and Szeth has. It is a long and difficult road, but the first step is to stop blaming everyone else for his problems. As long as he views his own actions as not “wrong”, he will never seek to do what is “right”.
@30 Carl
I think Bridge 4 would still forgive Moash because to them, he is still Bridge 4. It was Moash who rejected them, not the other way around. At least that is my reading of it.
@32 John
I feel Cultivation is playing a long con, but in fighting Odium. She is pretending disinterest, while working in the background to get back at him for her lover’s death.
@35 noblehunter
Good point.
Regarding whether or nor Odium is Evil. Is murdering 4 other shard bearers the only evil thing he’s done? All of the original shard bearers are guilty of murder. They killed Adonalsium. They murdered God. From one perspective a fair punishment for that would be execution. And if vengence can be considered an emotion, maybe Odium can’t help himself. If he contains Adonalisiums divine wrath, he’s kinda avenging his own murder.
@37 Well, he has empowered the Fused to embark on a millennium long project of genocide causing uncounted casualties. He wiped out the surviving Parshendi in order to give the Fused bodies. He used the Thrill to encourage Dalinar to burn a city full of people and the Vedans to slaughter each other.
I’d say he was pretty evil.
@37 toothlessjoe
We do not know if Adonalsium was God with a capital G, nor do we know if there is an actual God with a capital G in the Cosmere at all. For all we know, Adonalsium was just another being with a whole lot of power, no different than any of the current shardholders, or mistborn, or radiants, or sandmasters etc in varying degrees. All are fallible. They just have access to things not everyone else does. So we also do not know if there was a perfectly good reason on their part to take out Adonalsium. Adonalsium could have changed and decided to end the Cosmere, and they stopped it. At this stage we just don’t know.
@37 toothlessjoe, @39 scath:
I agree with what scath said. That being said, Odium is clearly a bad guy. You can talk about intent taking control all you want, but we already know Hoid had a feud against him before he ascended. And while I think Hoid is clearly looking for some sort of redemption, for some misdeed – likely the reason Adonalsium “died” – we know that Hoid is a good* guy. See no further than his last chapter in this book.
good* = as far as we know, since this could also end up a Dalinar kind of situation.
@40 Keyblazing
Two WoB that do support what you say regarding Rayse and Odium’s intent. Rayse feels he fits Odium’s intent very well, and does not want any other shards on purpose because he feels it will make him be less “him”. So he feels the shard of Hatred fits his personality very well. Take from that what you will.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332-jordancon-2018/#e9608
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/246-alloy-of-law-17th-shard-qa/#e5489
@33: I’m glad such thinking worked for you. It frustrates me to be told I should stop trying, but also frustrate when people say I should try things regardless of the consequences they wouldn’t have to deal with. What I’d like to occasionally hear is that sometimes it’s OK to give up. That what I have, and what I am, can be enough.
@Lyn: I relate to the desire to belong in a social group I’m comfortable with. I never felt pressured to be like the Cool Kids…until college, when I was suddenly among lots of wonderful people who I admired and wanted to be. They didn’t pressure me to emulate them, but I pressured myself, feeling inadequate becasue they could do things I couldn’t, sure I would never be as confident and many-talented as them. Put them on pedestals, really, and that’s not healthy for anyone. But ever since graduations gradually parted all of us, I simply wish I could be among them again.
I don’t think Odium/Rayse is a nice person. I even referred to him as a “bad guy” upthread. I just have zero reason to think Cultivation is a good person. We know too little about the Vessel (or even the Shard). Some of the Fused seem like nice folks and they’re Splinters of Odium. I think everyone is gray, not black or white.
As for Odium on a “millennium long project of genocide” consider what Honor’s side did to the Singers. Millennia of hideous and inescapable slavery from which Odium freed them.
@42: Well… There always is nuance to be applied to any internal motto…
One should evaluate if a given goal is worth putting up the effort for and/or if one still want to reach a given goal. In the situation which earned me one of my “life defining sentences”, I was dealing with a concrete goal I wanted to achieve (but was trying to rationalize through tears I did not really care about it), which was achievable, but wasn’t easy to reach. Of course, I was just a kid, I internalized this event for many reasons, but it did serve me right later in my life.
As a young adult, I developed insomnia linked to self-imposed performance anxiety. I had, I still have, troubles trying to find my self-worth outside of my academic achievements. In other words, I was only as good as my grades said I was, so when I dropped the ball on one test, my world crashed around me. Insomnia is how it materialized itself. As a young person, I lacked the life experience and the stepping back not to overly dramatize the situation, so it went from bad, to worst, to downright awful. I broke the cycle by starting to take sleeping pills which then threw me into another not-so-healthy cycle, the one where I needed my medication to sleep….
Anyway, I spent two years sorting those issues and trying to get rid of my dependance on sleeping pills. I wanted to reach this goal, so I tried and I tried and I tried until I finally won. The life motto DID help here… If you want something, you’ve got to keep on trying and oh I wanted this. So I got it. It wasn’t easy, but I still got it. Now, I sleep very well.
All this to say, whether you want to pursue a given goal or not belongs to you and only you. It is not up to anyone but yourself to decide where you want to put your efforts. In this optic, choosing not to push in one direction, despite others advocating you to do it, is also in-line with my little motto as it is all about what YOU want, not what you think you should want (Renarin), not what others tell you you should want (Adolin), not what you convinced yourself you do not want (Moash).
I also relate to wanting to be part of the “cool kids”, to belong, to feel included and even if I were within a group, I always felt I wasn’t really in the group. That’s probably why I relate to Moash’s issues with Bridge 4 here. He had not realize how much he wanted to be part of this group until he blew it. Now he is left with nothing. No family. No friends. No support group. No belonging. Nothing. Of course, it is all his fault but see that’s the problem…. people make mistakes. And Moash here has no one to turn to now he has made one, no one besides the only people willing to take him in, the Fused.
And no, he does not deserve pity, because he did it all by himself: and this is what makes him, to my eyes, so tragic.
@43 Carl
I most definitely agree there is a whole lot of shades of gray (far more than 50) regarding the Cosmere and the people in it. I don’t think anyone’s hands are truly clean, and honestly I like it that way. It allows for deeper characterization, and understanding.
@43 The slavery was in direct response to Odium using the Singers and the Fused to wipe out humans and Odium only freed the parshmen because he needed them for the Fused.
@46 noblehunter
And potentially the Singers/Fused were in direct response to the humans taking their lands and wiping them out. And then as far as we know, the singers could have done something to instigate that, and the humans did something to instigate that, back and back. History tends to get blurry and very rarely is anyone truly innocent. I think that is why in this conflict, like the tag line of “The Last Jedi”, Roshar has to let the past die. Potentially including the fused and the heralds, before anyone can truly heal.
Moash was well aware that he had gained acceptance. He uses that acceptance to guilt his friend into abandoning his Oaths for the sake of vengeance. Say instead that he never truly learned how to really be loyal to anything.
@48 EvilMonkey
That is a good point on loyalty. Moash said it himself. He was always on the edge of civilization and wilderness. He deliberately isolated himself from both. By being outside both he would naturally feel isolated, which would allow him to support his internal narrative that society is at fault. If the society treated people right, then he would belong and wouldn’t have to feel isolated. By isolating himself he then views the society antagonistically and thus it is at fault for him feeling isolated. The rationale is faulty, but in his mind beneficial because it is self supported and self sustaining. External evidence is not required. I feel these are psychological issues Moash held for a very long time by his own admittance. I feel this is also exacerbated by Odium “claiming” his anger and pain. Moash cannot confront and claim responsibility of his actions if he gives it up to Odium as he did in the end. Very interesting.
edit: Hmmm, now that Moash has given up his anger/pain to Odium in the end, I wonder if it is possible for him at that point to confront his responsibility. I am not speaking of whether or not he deserves redemption nor whether he desires it or not, but whether or not the function mentally is actually possible anymore. Hmmmm
On Adonalsium: While it seems as if, logically, all the shards together should make a balanced being (note Harmony, who seems a lot more helpful to his world than his predecessors), that seems a bit too easy an answer for the Cosmere.
On Moash: If darkeyes were a minority (say 10% of the population), I could see how Moash’s belief that people saw a big, confidant darkeyes as a threat as a fair observation. But, lighteyes are an aristocratic minority. If numbers have been given, I’ve missed them, but I’m guessing darkeyes are closer to 90% of the population, maybe more. Also, most of Moash’s day to day interactions would have been with other darkeyes.
So, he seems to be claiming other darkeyes saw him as a threat for reasons that were unfair and beyond his control.
This is also in an obsessive warrior culture where big, hefty, confident warriors are generally held in esteem.
Color me skeptical.
The Fused are souls of dead parsh, not Splinters of Odium.
#46, @noblehunter”
The attempt to conquer (there’s no evidence of genocide) humans was only in direct response to their breaking out of the lands generously given to them after they literally destroyed their own planet with Surgebinding. We don’t actually know Odium’s motivations, and I have no problem believing he felt hatred (his job) for their enslavement.
#50, @ellynne:
Look at the other direction: what are worlds whose Shards have been broken up into even smaller pieces like? Sel, where Devotion and Dominion are Splintered? It doesn’t seem to be any worse than even pre-Harmony Scadrial, where unsplintered Shards were originally cooperating to create and people it. Certainly Threnody (of “Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell”) is a terrible place to live, but is that because Ambition, who lived there for a time, was wounded by Odium before fleeing and dying somewhere else?
#51, @birgit:
They have to be both, just as the Heralds or the Returned are both souls of dead humans and also Slivers. I guess the Fused could be Slivers rather than Splinters.
@52 I’m pretty sure “kill all the humans” is on the Fused to-do list. I don’t have my book handy to look up references though. The wiki references chapter 38
#53: Some Fused. Not the ones who like Moash, for instance. Some of the restored Parsh want to kill or conquer every human, but many (most?) don’t. Odium’s forces are not all utterly unified.
With most of their number, including likely over half their generals being insane, it’s difficult to determine what their mission statement or desired endgame actually is. It’s going to be quite a challenge to find common ground with the Fused.
@50 Ellynne
Good points.
@51 birgit
To elaborate on Carl’s later response, since the Fused are cognitive shadows, they need to be suffused with investiture enough to leave a cognitive shadow. This investiture is of Odium, and is of a concentration enough to be considered a splinter. So as Carl said, they are both. WoB below to support.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/259-oathbringer-leeds-signing/#e8757
@52 Carl
Well we do know Rayse’s ultimate goal is to get off Roshar, and continue killing other Vessels and shattering other shards so he is top dog. So that is a pretty clear motivation backed by WoB I posted prior in this thread. If you would like me to post them again, just ask, and I will edit this post to include them.
It could be argued considering the land of Sel trembling from an entity gaining sapience without someone to guide it could end up being worse off than with a Vessel. Sanderson has said unguided investiture can be problematic. Also there is the maelstrom that is the Sel cognitive realm. So those are all negative results of a shattering of shards on a world that affects the native population. (the WoB about investiture gaining sapience on its own not necesarily being a good thing will take some time locating as the keywords “investiture” and “sapience” has pulled up quite the list. I will update hopefully soon)
Just a little clarity on terms. Slivers are “people” who have taken up the power of a shard and let it go. The stormfather is a sliver by proxy in so far as Tanavast’s cognitive shadow is the sliver because it was once human and held the shard Honor. The Stormfather merging with Tanavast’s cognitive shadow is technically why it could be termed a sliver though the Stormfather by itself could never be a sliver. I know sounds a little confusing but perhaps the WoBs I derive this info from will help. Shown below
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/204-goodreads-fantasy-book-discussion-warbreaker-qa/#e4499
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/81-shadows-of-self-newcastle-uk-signing/#e5723
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/205-vericon-2011/#e4541
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2-jordancon-2016/#e9207
@53 noblehunter
I agree
@55 EvilMonkey
I agree
Moash refuses to take ultimate responsibility for his actions. It’s fair to say that this is true of other characters and ones most fans like more. However, I think what Dalinar concludes at the end, when offered the chance to blame his actions on Odium, is important if Moash, Teft or anyone else is going to get a true redemption arc. He refuses to pass the blame off onto someone else, even though he might have some legitimate reasons to claim mitigating circumstances (the Thrill, Alethi society, Odium, etc). That’s the difference for me between the road Moash walked in this book, and the one I’d hoped he was on.
At this point I’ve given up on him, though he still has some admirable qualities (e.g. Identifying with the parshmen), and expect he will more likely end up as Odium’s champion, than having a redemption arc. I’d love to be proved wrong.
@57: I personally agree Moash hasn’t taken responsibilities for his actions while Dalinar did, yet. I am however not willing to say he never will. It took decades, a magical surgery and the intense love/care from his family for Dalinar to grow into the man he now is.
Hence, I don’t see why Moash couldn’t be allowed the chance to grow as well and to realize he made a mistake. I don’t read him as so rotten he would never reach this conclusion. I believe the narrative has had worst individuals redeem themselves than Moash, so why not him?
This being said, I also expect Moash to become Odium’s Champion. He seems pretty strongly set towards this path. I am not against him becoming Odium’s Champion, but at the same time I do think he has enough qualities to maybe manage to pull through. And if he doesn’t, I’ll still feel sorry for him. I keep on feeling had things happened slightly differently, for him, he might have made another choice.
In resume, yes, I feel sorry for Moash, yes I feel he got the short hand of a bad deal, yes, I think he was discriminated against his personality, but also yes, he took all of the wrong decisions. I can relate to this. I would love to hope for Moash to earn a better future, but I am not expecting it. The best I am expecting out of his character is the heroic sacrifice… Whatever happens, I do not think Moash will ever fight for the good guys: he’s just not the kind of individual others will forgive easily. He is not Dalinar. So heroic sacrifice is about the only positive outcome I currently foresee for his character.
And yes, I also think fans like Moash less because of Elhokar and his betrayal of Kaladin. However, yes, I do think other characters did much worst.
@57 marethyu316
I am glad you brought up Teft in connection with Moash because it made me realize something. They are both linked in self hatred. Teft fled to fire moss, and Moash fled to obsession with revenge. I think Teft is a step further along as he has come to terms with his self hatred being the true cause of his problems. “I will protect those I hate. Even if the one I hate most is myself“. I think this is a huge step for Teft and is the step that is holding Moash back. Teft still has a long way to go and the cravings for the drug are not gone, but he has begun to the hard journey of taking responsibility for his actions and growing as a person. I wonder with Odium taking his pain and hate, will Moash be able to confront those feelings despite their magical absence and finally take that much needed step.
@everyone
So looks like it is semi confirmed that Heralds do not possess bodies of people when they come back to Roshar. Brandon says “people who are constantly reborn, into full sized grown bodies that are being created for them“. I take the “being created for them” as a pretty clear indicator that they are not hopping into an existing person’s body like the fused are. I know it is not necessarily pertinent to these chapters, but figured it would be a nice update. So to all those that felt the heralds possessing people when desolations came would be evil, it seems they don’t do it so rejoice! :)
Posted link below
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360-legion-release-party/#e10880
Gepeto @33:
But as incident with Guff(?) confirms after the incident with Kaladin, with Moash it isn’t about being loud or opinionated, but about his willingness to do physical harm or put in the way of physical harm people with whom he ostensibly has friendly relationships. Now, at least with Kaladin, Moash actually agonises about it a bit, but with Guff he doesn’t even spare a thought for him after setting him up for a beating. This suggests a rather unpleasant pattern to me, which probably accounts for Moash’s previous isolation. And he is too self-centered to have noticed this tendency of his until it was his literal savior that he turned against.
Also, what EvilMonkey @48 said, Moash understood acceptance and loyalty enough and was aware of himself as their recipient, to use them in his manipulation of Kaladin.
You have also mentioned somewhere that I can’t find a new WoB about Amaram – that Sanderson intended to depict the process of his downfall on-page, but decided not to, for space reasons. This makes so much sense and it is a great pity that he didn’t go for it, as, frankly, his downfall would have been more interesting for me than Moash’s – though I appreciated the insights into the Fused that we got through the latter’s PoVs.
@58:
Dalinar, even at his worst, _always_ took responsibility for his actions. That’s where Odium miscalculated and was likely his saving grace.
Are the Shards or their vessels capable of using different approaches? Like Isilel said, Rayse was close to success in preparing Dalinar for Championship but failed due to Dalinar always taking responsibility for even his most heinous crimes. But Rayse’s thing is taking pain, taking responsibility and leaving the person numb. Is Rayse and by extension Odium a one-trick-pony? I ask because even with Dalinar being an exemplary human being now, he still carries the darkness in him that would make him a formidable Champion for any Shard. Does Odium consider him to be unusable now or will he keep trying to pull Dalinar to his side? And if he is still trying is he flexible enough to attempt a different method or does Shardic Intent prevent innovation
@62 EvilMonkey
I do not think Shardic Intent prevents innovation of the Vessel as long as such innovation remains in line with the Intent. Rayse likes being Odium because it gives him the most leeway to do what he wants. He is concerned that if he takes up other shards it would limit him from being himself. So I could see Odium still having ways to potentially try to seduce Dalinar to his side.
@@@@@ scath
See, the problem is that in all the interactions with Shardic entities, we’ve never seen anything like flexibility in their methods. Maybe it’s due to the timeline in which they operate (immortality usually equates to slow to react to change), maybe it’s due to Intent fixing thought patterns to allign with the Shard over time, maybe it’s due to the rules all Shards/Vessels are governed by. Only in the second case can I see any Vessel having flexibility in action; they can be both time-dependant and Intent-dependant. For example, Sazed as a newer Vessel theoretically should have more freedom of action than one of the original Vessels. As there are many ways to endow a person or object, I would assume Edgli could change methodology more easily than other Vessels. Odium fails both criteria.
@64 EvilMonkey
Hmmm I was trying to avoid discussing Sazed due to mistborn spoilers, so I will post my response and then white it out so hopefully formatting doesn’t go all to hell lol.
Sazed/Harmony is a unique case as he is holding two diametrically opposed shards in preservation and ruin. Now I did say flexibility as long as it does not come into conflict with its intent. So for instance Preservation/Leras wanted to stop Ruin/Ati. Leras couldn’t directly kill Ruin because of his intent to preserve. However that didn’t stop him from arranging a situation where the power of preservation would check Ruin’s power for the most part, and arrange with his future sight for Vin to take up the power and kill Ati. There Leras is actively creating a plan that will result in the destruction of something, which is contrary to his intent, but by using the flexibility of an intermediary, he still accomplished his goal.
Now as to Odium, WoB say that Rayse wanted Odium, and likes to remain pure Odium because it gives him the most ability to still be himself. He actively does not want to pick up other shards because he feels it will limit himself or cause him to become someone he feels he is not. I feel Odium is an amorphous enough concept that Rayse could accomplish all sorts of things if he so chooses to do so. There is nothing saying that Odium couldn’t use an intermediary like Leras did to cause an action that will result in Dalinar being filled with anger, rage, or hate, and then Odium can swoop in. Basically I do not feel Dalinar is automatically immune because he was able to resist once. As shown with Teft, Shallan, and Kaladin, taking responsibility and growing as a person is a life time pursuit. It never truly ends.
edit: I would also add that although Rayse has been Odium longer so his intent should be a strong influence, Rayse also has the years of experience using the Shardic power, and ways to work around/with the intent and still accomplish his goals. So I feel that would indicate that Odium might have all sorts of cards up his sleeve. The balancing factor to that though, is so does Cultivation….. :)
edit 2: Hmmm, does make you wonder regarding Edgli, is Vasher and Vivienna popping up some of her machinations in the background to deal with Odium?
Just a quick note I haven’t read everything I am replying to individual posts as I get to them and feel the need too and will edit this post as needed.
@16 Yes. I have never agreed with you so much. Speaking of Renarin and his similarities and differences to Moash, well… I have mentioned I am on the autistic spectrum myself through at a different place then Renarin. As a result, I kind of have difficulty holding on to Anger. I tried it once I made a concious effort after a fight with my parents (long story) and I couldn’t even make it last trough the day, where as they were still upset the day after. The long and the short of it is. I am just not wired for staying angry. So my point is I wonder if the main difference between Renarin and Moash is the way are wired inside? I could be wrong but I am VARY curious to see the Renarin flashbacks in the back half.
EDIT: Clarification. I can lose my temper and lash out t people easily enough, but I can never HOLD my anger. And I am wondering if a similar inability to hold on to anger the way Moash has is the what made the characters different
58: Complete agreement.
Hey! I finally caught up. You all have written a lot of comments so far this reread. Very good discussions. I’m hoping some of them will come up again. I have been reading TWoK to my kids and it’s been very interesting to be going through that book and this one at the same time. I read Unleashing the Blackthorn at the same time as Unity and Ten Heartbeats in TWoK. In Unleashing the Blackthorn they are taking out Kalanor to replace him with Vamah, there is rock climbing and gloryspren. In a two WoK chapters we see Vamah going on the hunt with Dalinar, Dalinar and Elhokar rock climbing (with gloryspren,) and we see the Shardblade that was won in the flashback. As a follow up to some previous comments (@Gepeto) we see Adolin wishing Dalinar would be the blackthorn again and really longing to fight alongside the blackthorn. I don’t think it’s entirely true that Adolin never wanted to be a soldier.
Okay, this chapter. Moash-
This is the first description we get of Moash’s age and size in TWoK:
It doesn’t exactly describe him like a linebacker or anything, just lean and strong. I think the looks people give him have more to do with his facial expressions. Bitterness tends to show pretty clearly on your face.
Also the description of his grandparents as kindly had me thinking. Would they have wanted Moash to seek revenge? Probably not. Which means he didn’t do it for them.
This quote touches on another topic as well (from last week). It might be appropriate for Moash to feel like maybe he should have been with his grandparents to protect them but I don’t think you can say he abandoned them since they encouraged him to go.
There’s a comment upthread about Dalinar needing magic surgery from Cultivation to become who he “now” is. True to a point, but … he got that because he knew he needed redemption. He sought out the Nightwatcher and pleaded for forgiveness, because he was aware he had done something wrong.
That did not make him instantly a good and admirable person. It just let him “take the next step.” Agreeing with other comments, that’s what let Teft advance from his helpless dependency, finally: he acknowledged that he needed to change.
And that’s what Moash, to date, has not. We none of us (unless Peter Ahlstrom is still reading these) know what Brandon has in mind, but as of the end of Oathbringer Moash has gone limp and decided to let someone else run his life, and his very soul. He can’t progress until and unless he, himself, takes on that responsibility.
By the way, Taravangian will be Odium’s Champion. Remember that he’s Dalinar’s exact mirror image. He might even Ascend when Rayse dies and become the new Vessel of Odium.
@68 Carl
Taravangian is completely unsuitable to be Odium’s Champion, much less the Bearer of the Shard. He takes responsibility for his actions, and he doesn’t hate anyone. Taravangian is trying to save some fraction of humanity, and while his methods are evil, but his intent is good. That doesn’t make him suitable for the Shard of Hatred.
@67 Bellaberry
Interesting points
@68 Carl
Agree on all points, except Taravangian. That I am on the fence about which I will go into more in my response to dptullos
@69 dptullos
Everything you said about Taravangian taking responsibility and not hating anyone is completely true and I am in agreement. However I feel there is a very very thin line seperating Taravangian from Amaram and Szeth. All three used something external from themselves to warrant their actions. Now both Taravangian and Szeth own responsibility of those actions even when they claim they have no choice due to that external entity they follow (the Diagram, the holder of the oathstone), while Amaram used the external entity (Vorin Church) as an excuse for his actions. However, Taravangian clings to all his actions being worthwhile because it will preserve humanity. I do wonder how Taravangian may handle if he is shown irrefutable proof that the diagram failed or was a lie. Will he, like Amaram, run to the next closest thing to absolve him of his choices and thereby side fully with Odium? Or will he, like Szeth, still own up to his choices and choose to move forward and do better by siding with Team Honor? Now personally I do not see Taravangian ending up completely under Odium or taking over Odium’s shard because I am in the camp that believes Taravangian is a plant by Cultivation but he could very well be turned against her, like Dalinar was turned against Odium. So I am very interested to see how Taravangian continues to develop.
@70 scath
I can see the similarities between Taravangian and Szeth, but Amaram betrayed the Vorin Church by running to Odium. He abandoned both the journey and the destination out of guilt and despair. Mr. T is still dedicated to the destination, even if it means a journey that leads him into Odium’s camp.
If Taravangian found irrefutable evidence that the Diagram wouldn’t work, the kind, emotional Taravangian would have an emotional breakdown before he confessed his sins. The cold, logical Taravangian would promptly go to Dalinar and tell him everything so that they could figure out a workable plan together. “Smart” nor “Stupid” Taravangian are both immune immune to Odium’s promise to free them from pain, as “Smart” T doesn’t feel empathy for others and “Stupid” T doesn’t want to be free from the pain he feels. This has never been about personal absolution for Taravangian.
I like the idea of Taravangian as a plant for Cultivation. I just don’t think Odium has anything to offer him to convince him to turn. Odium uses hatred, but Mr. T doesn’t hate his enemies, and he uses the promise of freedom from guilt, but Taravangian isn’t interested in that freedom. There’s no hook that he can get into Taravangian’s soul. Odium can bribe him with the promise of saving his city, but he can’t corrupt Taravangian into abandoning his goal.
@61: I definitely do agree with the incidents with both Kaladin and Guff (I think it was Guff too) do indicate Moash has a tendencies to be either selfish and/or self-centered. I certainly was not trying to depict him as an angel fallen from the sky.
I however do think how he was treated, based on his personality combined with his status as a darkeyed, did ultimately cause him to develop this apathy we read in him. I can understand how being constantly excluded and/or constantly feeling excluded and/or judged in ways deemed unfair can exacerbate a few given personality traits to the point where they become negative. Mind, understanding is not the same as approving. I do not approve of Moash’s behavior nor decision making, but I can see how things piled up in ways where he felt he was making the right call. Or in ways where he felt there were no right call, so best pick the one which might yield the best outcome for him.
A bit like when a former victim of bullying becomes someone else’s bully? You would think having suffered from bullying would make everyone keen on not to reproduce those patterns, but reality is some people will have the opposite reaction. Human reactions are very complex… and not always rational. A part of me can understand wanting others to hurt as bad as you have hurt just so they would understand what they did to you. Just so they would feel it too… Is it the right approach? The right line of thought? The right behavior? Hell, no, but sometimes we react outside what is normal, healthy and moral.
I read Moash as someone who lost his moral compass. Not everyone reacts to hardship by attempting to become a better person, some will just close onto themselves and see to their interests first as they perhaps perceive no one else will do it if they don’t. I find it very complex.
Yes, there is a recent WoB where Brandon explains he had indeed planned to write Amaram’s viewpoints in order to better flesh out his downfall. He says to have changed his mind in order to limit the size of the book. Why did he choose to eliminate those while keeping other elements, he did not say. We can guess Brandon felt everything else was more important than giving a stronger background to Amaram’s fall, hence Amaram didn’t make the cut. With Moash, we can guess Brandon is not done with the character: he has future plans for him, hence, from a narrative point of view, it was preferable to spend time with him than with Amaram who was dying at the end of the book anyway.
As a reader, I would have however preferred getting one or two insights on Amaram in order to make his last stance more impactful. I know other readers felt the same: this was discussed elsewhere within the fandom. I don’t know if I would have traded Moash for Amaram though given we still do not know where his narrative will go. Arguably, upon my first read, I would have certainly enjoyed reading Amaram more than Moash.
On Dalinar, I do not consider the 6 years he spent wallowing in drunken self-pity accounts for him “taking responsibilities for his actions”. I feel it was the opposite, he was running away from them, away from his responsibilities as Highprince and, more importantly, as a father, preferring drunken oblivion to the dealing with the truth. I personally always felt the moment Dalinar truly takes full responsibilities for his actions is when he denies Odium: only then did he embrace his responsibility while knowing the extend of his actions. Before this moment, he either did not remember or used alcohol to escape reality.
Hence, I do think Moash is entitled to at least as long as Dalinar before we deem him a lost cause.
@66: I don’t think Moash has neuroatypical nor that he battles with any mental illness. I think he is just your average person who struggles at connecting with others for various reasons. He is angry. His anger is what prevents him from seeing other solutions.
I recently read how anger works on the brain in ways to make every action feel justified. It feels GOOD to act on anger and not everyone is apt at tuning it down. Some people also have a stronger inner sense of justice and get more easily angry when face with what they perceive as an injustice. They jump of the curtains really easily, they get temperamental very fast… the reverse is also true. Some other people just don’t get easily angry for various reasons: when both halves speak, they can not understand each other. Why are you so angry? Why aren’t you angry?
It is why when Adolin murders Sadeas, he feels SO good about himself, he is SO pleased: this was the anger. It made him feel justified to kill Sadeas, but once it vans out, he has more trouble rationalizing his actions. While he sticked to his original thoughts: this is a good thing, he often does not seem convinced it really was.
Moash is somewhat similar in the sense he is angry and he has many reasons to be angry both at society, at people and also at his self. This is exactly the aspect of his personality the Fused are playing with to have him do their killing for them.
If he is to change and not sink any further, Moash will need to learn how to make better decision despite being angry, learn how not to make decisions when he is angry. Kaladin goes through a similar arc in WoR.
On Renarin, I do think he is “wired” differently. Adolin notes how Renarin does not think like everyone else and can be hard to follow for those not used to him. I do wonder what his flashbacks will be about though. Seems to me his childhood is more or less covered, I am not seeing enough material for a full flashback sequences using only his past, so I am hoping it will unravel things yet to come.
@67: Adolin states within his own viewpoint he had initially been reluctant at becoming a soldier. He also states he merely agreed to it because he thought he if sought enough revenge on the Parshendis, it’d help his father get back to the man he once was. Dalinar, in his own viewpoint, also confirms Adolin had little love for the warfare and feels sorry he had been forced to turn him into a soldier.
Those happen within WoK/WoR. In OB, my feelings are Brandon either retcon Adolin’s backstory to make him yearn to walk into his father’s footsteps and/or he inadvertently created a loophole and/or I am misinterpreting something.
I can however state I have a different interpretation to the passage you have noted in WoK.
Adolin hero-worships Dalinar. When he was little, Evi told him how his father was the most honorable general within the Alethi army, the only decent man, the only good man. She also told him he was “out there” fighting the “bad guys”. Hence, Adolin definitely grew up thinking his father is a Hero. In his mind, his father has never been anything less than the most honorable of all soldiers: he never killed anyone who didn’t deserve killing. He certainly never sought battle just for the love of spilling blood neither did he ever slay an innocent. Thus, Dalinar, the Blackthorn, is a Hero. His Hero. So when he becomes a soldier, he yearns to see Him, His Hero. The greatest man in all of Alethar, the man straight out from the legend, but he can’t see him because this man has been broken by both Evi and Gavilar’s death.
Hence, I never felt Adolin’s angst over wanting to see the Blackthorn implies he himself wants to be a soldier too, I think it merely is the expression of a son wanting to meet and/or see in action the man he has idolize since as far as he can remember.
I do not think this passage directly contradicts later quotes from both Adolin/Dalinar on Adolin’s desire to be a soldier. It does not state Adolin himself enjoys the warfare, just he wish he would see the Blackthorn in action.
@68: I agree with you here.
My point in saying Dalinar needed magical surgery was to highlight the fact Dalinar has had help to give him the capacity to make the next step. Granted, he decided he needed to change. He sought whichever help he could find and he received it, but he didn’t do it just on his own. He had help. He also have the emotional support and non judgmental love from his family which is more than many real-life alcoholic probably get.
Knowing this makes me less incline to throw the first rock to Moash for being stuck in a negative downward spiral.
@71 dptullos
One could argue the Heralds betrayed the Vorin Church by lying about the desolations and the Vorin Church in turn betrayed Amaram by manipulating the information it did have to try and retain what power it had and regain what power it lost. The entire church is basically founded on lies. Just instead of realizing that his religion is false, and taking responsibility for his actions by trying to fix the problems he caused, Amaram ran to the other side to absolve himself of his guilt.
But the question is, would the kind, emotional Taravangian (who mind you still carries out the Diagram despite his kind emotionalness) when having the emotional breakdown seek to make reparations, or because he is so overwhelmed by the emotions, flee to Odium as Amaram did? “Smart” Taravangian could see the appeal of Odium in that he would be able to be purely without the emotional Taravangian that he feels cripples him. Now I say all of this only because I feel there is a chance he could end up with Odium. I personally do not think he will as I said, but I could see where Carl stands that it is a possibility.
I think the question that I don’t think we have a definitive answer to is without the Diagram, would Taravangian still own up to his actions? Up until this point he always says “My actions are my own, but I do so for the Diagram” which as I said is very much like Szeth. I think he will go down a similar path, but I do think there is a slight chance that without the Diagram to back up his decisions, Taravangian might become overwhelmed with the fallout of his decisions, and possibly run. I would however like to believe he has the level of conviction that he would not.
Taravangian is the author of the Diagram. When he follows it he follows himself, so it is still his responsibility.
@74 birgit
But he is following the 1 shot in a million sublimely gifted “him” that has been referred to in such a manner so often to be almost psychologically removed from the Taravangian we “know” and further who he himself “knows”. If this “person” is at fault, what could he trust? What could he believe in? He has placed all his chips in that basket, much like Amaram did in the Heralds. Up until now, anytime there was a problem with the Diagram, there was a way for Taravangian to reason away the issue. It is the “human error” of the mundane followers of the Diagram being unable to properly interpret it. However, if the Diagram fails, if this sublimely gifted version of him fails, then what is there left? And there is Odium waiting with open arms. Again, not saying he will, but I can see the possibility. The temptation. I think he will choose to refuse Odium, but it will be hard.
@72 Gepeto Okay, that is a fair enough interpretation. I was wondering if you had considered that passage and I’m glad that you have.
@72 I am sorry if I implied Moash was Neuro atypical. I actually meant the opposite. I meant that being in that kind of environment for a NORMAL person WOULD turn them into somoe like Moash. That basically the ONLY reason Renarin did NOT turn out that way was in a since that he got lucky. Basically the same thing that CONTRIBUTED to hi othering ALSO IRONICALLY helped to SOMEWHAT save him from SOME of it’s worst affects. Tony Atwood someone to did tsome pioneering research on it has described it has a barrier to negative emotions. That being said it is NOT without it’s downsides we may be less likely to harm others, but contemplating self harm isn’t unheard of when things get to be too much. I have thought about it has time but ironically the same thing that makes be thing about hurting myself can often lead to me talking myself out of it. “Basically what’s the point? It’s not like hurting myself would accomplish anything. Even if I take a that’ll show them attitude it’s not like it will really show anyone they could care less about how I feel.” (fortunately this does NOT happen often. And I havn’t tried to do anything to myself in years. Though when I was a kid I would often often sit in window sills during my meltdown periods.) At the same time. I may be bad at noticing others in pain, but when I DO notice them I tend to care about them a lot. (I also have huge problems with procrastinating if it’s relevant.) Basically, and this is more speculation I think that the main difference between Renarin and Moash may be that one is more inclined to lash out at others while one is more inclined to hurt themselves.
Edit: P.S. Sorry If I got too personal. I might be projecting a bit much. But I did remember a bit back in The Way Of Kings where Renarin said that it would be better for him to die than to be an embarrassment. It made me think of self-harm issues.
P.P.S. Part of me wonders if Renarin was more aware of his Mom and Dad’s fights then he let’s on. I can’t timagine that all that yelling and screaming was hard for such a kid to filter out. It might explain why he’s so quiet all the time. It’s not just that he has trouble staying angry on a personal level. But he has personal experiences witht the consequences of expressing too much anger. (I don’t know. for me thoerycraftying is throwing things against the wall and seeing what sticks)
P.P.P.S. Did Renarin and Moash ever interact during Bridge Four? I don’t remember if they did, but if they didn’t I want them to interact so much.
I am with Dptullos @69 and @71:
Taravangian, while currently allied with Odium, is one of the least likely characters to actually fall under his shardic sway, because his personalities in all parts of the spectrum that they can assume, don’t offer any purchase. I am also not sure why Odium would want him as his champion, as he seems to be looking for somebody with martial skills.
For this job there is, of course the obvious, boring, and not very convincing option of Moash. He seems to be some kind of wunderkind where fighting is concerned and if he manages to bond and contain Yelig-nar, he could maybe feel like a plausibly dangerous opponent for Kaladin, who is most likely to be Dalinar’s champion or Szeth, who is an outside (but, IMHO, preferable) candidate. I assume here that Yelig-nar gives one a certain level of instinctual understanding of how to use surges, like Nahel bond does, rather than makes one learn things the hard way, as the users of the Honorblades have to.
But there are other, more menacing possibilities. For instance, Ishar, who seems to be quite angry – literally an old man yelling at the clouds (Stormfather), heh, and also pretty nihilistic. Not to mention that his prior actions make me suspect him of long-standing collusion with Odium.
Or Nale – whose numbness and reliance on outside “guidance” cause me think that he may be halfway there. Yes, he currently hates the fact that his logic compels him to change sides… but he also seems to think that he doesn’t have a choice, which plays into Odium’s MO.
Both of them would be terrifying champions indeed, although Ishar would need to retrieve Heraldic blades and/or to bond Yelig-nar to make a truly terrifying opponent in a duel, while Nale is pretty much all set as is. What, between his immense experience in using his surges and fighting people using the same, living shardplate that he must have as a Radiant of the 5th Ideal, a small, but palpable enhancement of his surges through duplication of Order and Heraldic blade, unique ability to dual-wield his blades or use his spren as an impregnable shield as needed, plus whatever other advantages the Heralds have due to their nature.
Gepeto @72:
What I meant was that Dalinar claimed ownership of Rathalas and all his decisions prior. He never blamed Sadeas, although that worthy had been actively playing a devil on his shoulder and speedily acted in the way that made the matters much worse, he never blamed the Thrill. Even when he was a drunk, he never blamed anybody else for it, though he came close a couple of times. IMHO, this was the quality of Dalinar’s character that Odium didn’t take into account and which defeated his plan in the end. And no, I don’t think that Dalinar is now “immune”, but he is also forewarned and on guard, so that his succumbing is even more unlikely.
BenW @77:
This is a good insight into what could be going on inside Renarin. But he couldn’t have witnessed his parents’ conflicts because he saw very little of his father until Evi’s death. IIRC, at the time of Rathalas it has been 3+ years since Dalinar last visited Kholinar and Renarin was never taken to see him in his army encampments, due to his delicate health.
P.S. I don’t remember any specific interactions between Moash and Renarin, which is odd. You’d think that Moash would have hated having him around, but I only remember Teft complaining about it.
@Gepeto: maybe Renarin will have “flash-forwards” instead of flashbacks, seeing as he seemingly has a connection to Fortune and sees the future. That would actually be interesting.
I mean, I’ll be dead but it will be interesting to someone.
Taravangian is not the author of the Diagram. His own scholar whose name I have forgotten points out to him that it is vanishingly unlikely he was ever smart enough to write it. Cultivation is meddling like crazy, but trying to do so in hard-to-trace ways. He thinks he created it, of course.
@Isilel: you are assuming Odium’s Champion must fight physically. Why? Keep in mind that Unity/Dalinar no longer fights. Stormfather even says he won’t be a sword. In the end, the fight against Odium won’t be entirely, or even primarily, physical. (In my opinion, obviously.)
By analogy, both Kelsier and Vin ended up being only short-term Preservation Vessels, and they were both outstanding fighters. It is Sazed who is clearly far better at it, and while he can and does fight when necessary, it’s hardly his main attribute.
By the way, note that Szeth can dual-wield now, since he has taken the Third Oath of the Skybreakers and carries Nightblood. Note also, Nightblood is confirmed by Word of Brandon to be Invested enough to frighten the Shards.
@76: Thanks. I did. I find WoK/WoR are very much in-line when it comes to Adolin. It is OB which does add a few elements which are harder to put together with the existing canon.
My current thoughts are Adolin really never wanted to be soldier (afterall both WoK and WoR tell us this is the case), but was one because he thought that’s what his father expected out him. Also teenage Adolin wouldn’t have seen the battlefield, most of his reluctance seems to have come at a later stage, probably when he witness what warfare actually does. For example, Adolin is disgusted with the slaughtering he does during the Thaylenah battle, he is killing humans and it doesn’t sit well with him. Thinking how he went from useless in Shadesmar to a killing machine opens up a conflict in him: what is he worth? Killing with a powerful weapon no one can defeat? Is this it?
I can see this internal debate evolve within book 4.
@77: Thank you for clarifying your thoughts.
I do think different people will react to the same situation in a different manner, no matter if they are neurotypical or not. Given, a neuroatypical individual is perhaps more likely to react in a given way, but among neurotypical individuals there just as many reactions as there are people. For instances, Adolin reacts to Dalinar’s rebuffs by wanting to try harder and thinking if he is criticized, then it is because he hasn’t done well-enough. Put within the same situation, Moash would have probably reacted in anger, rebelled and do the opposite. Moash would have been likely to hate Dalinar for how he treated him while Adolin loves him even more for it because he sees him as someone who needs help. Moash would think of his own self first, his sense of self-preservation are much stronger whereas Adolin thinks Dalinar is more important than him and would always prioritize his father over his own-self. So two neurotypical individuals, two very different reactions. Of course, I am speculating here and projecting Moash into an hypothetical situation based on how I read. I used Adolin as an example because he is the only neurotypical character within the cast who could be used for such a purpose.
In Renarin’s case, where I believe his autism did play a large is in his obssession over becoming a soldier: I read some rigidity here as if he weren’t able to drop an idea he once had. He struggles to move on. He gets hung up over things for a really long time and this seems to correlate with my, huh limited, knowledge of autism. I could be wrong, but I felt it might have been the case.
I do agree some people are more inclined to lash out whereas others are more inclined to internalize their pain and potentially hurt themselves. This is very true. Moash is naturally more rebellious, so he tends to lash out. A lot of people are this way too, they don’t all turn bad.
@78: Fair points.
My perspective however is choosing to be drunk was Dalinar evading responsibilities in a general manner, a way to not deal with reality, much like Shallan with Veil/Radiant or her memory loss.
@79: I really love the idea of Renarin’s flashbacks being flashforwards, much like Lost did on the last seasons. Having read Dalinar’s flashbacks, I didn’t feel there was much left to uncover when it came to Renarin. He spent his childhood in Kholinar. His mother spent half of her year with her, his brother was sporadically home, but not as much as his mother. His aunt and cousin seem to have been important figures. One of my WoB states Renarin actually had a lot of attention, just not from Dalinar.
His reasons for yearning to be a soldier are because he felt his inability to do so was the reason his father paid him so little attention. Two or three chapters would be nice (to flesh out his relationship with Adolin, I’d love that), but more seem like too much, hence I love the idea of Brandon potentially toying with something different here.
On Moash and Renarin: We never saw them interact, but in WoR, Moash is the one bridgemen who emits reserves at seeing Renarin spend so much time with them. He doesn’t like it. He states Renarin talks weird, is weird and he’d rather he didn’t crash on Bridge 4 so often. I actually liked this scene, not because it depicts Moash in a particularly bad light, but because people reacting negatively to autism, especially in a world where there are no awareness for the condition, is common. Moash’s thoughts are thoughts many people would have, but in-book, we only saw (except for Janala who’s a b****) people react favorably and positively to Renarin. It has been one of my commentaries, in the past, how it was difficult, for me, to picture Renarin as suffering from social exclusion when all characters we meet are so nice and welcoming towards him. So Moash here served as the one, very realitic, example of someone not understanding and not wanting to deal with differences. I thought it was important to show us at least one member of Bridge 4 wasn’t keen on having Renarin here, though it might have been preferable had Brandon not chosen the guy who ultimately turns traitor. Just it might had been preferable had the one scholar who talks down to Renarin hadn’t turn out being such an unsympathetic single-minded idiot.
In other words, I would have liked seeing an otherwise sympathetic character have trouble dealing with Renarin’s condition only to eventually over-come and learn different does not mean negative.
@78 Isilel
Even if Odium was only looking for someone with martial skill originally, I think its safe to say with the way it turned out, he would be open to other options lol.
Ishar is a very interesting option though I do not see it happening. Ishar’s madness has him claiming he is god. If in his mind he is a diety, then why would he kneel to another?
Nale I could see as a possibility but as he already sided with Odium, I feel his character progression would be him realizing how twisted all the heralds have become, including Ishar, and then switch sides to team honor.
@79 Carl
Personally I would find flashbacks where Renarin bonds Glys, learning of his nature, how Glys got corrupted, and how Renarin’s future sight first manifested would be very interesting and take up quite a few flash backs. The fear and loneliness he must have felt feeling like a monster, a voidbringer for seeing the future and feeling he is unable to stop what is to come. I think that is why Brandon has kept him in the background for the most part. Sanderson said it himself, once you dig into Renarin, he is like “a pandora’s box”, a whole lot comes flooding out. Also would love to see Renarin’s perspective when he bonded the shardblade while bonded to Glys. To understand the pain the poor kid had to deal with constantly every time he trained with it while feeling like he is doing something wrong or it is his fault. Finally I feel it will give us further insights into Jasnah and Navani as Renarin is very close to them, and they helped raise him. So we could end up seeing a more intimate and personable side of Jasnah and Navani which I look forward to.
@80 Fair point. Trying to predict where Sanderson would go is hard. And one thing IS for sure you can tell that Renarin WANTS to please his father. He seems to have a bit of a complex there.
@82: To be fair, the one I read with a “daddy complex” is more Adolin than Renarin. Renarin, I think he grew up thinking his father ignored him because he couldn’t be a soldier, hence he wanted to be one very badly. This correlates with Evi thinking exactly the same so there is a fair chance Dalinar’s rejection of his younger son is, at least in part, tied to this fact.
I find it is hard to evaluate how Renarin feels next to Dalinar now. It is clear his desire to be a soldier came from him thinking his father’s love was tied to it. As time passes, it no longer was the case, but Renarin’s earlier impulses stayed.
In other words, I do not think he wanted to be a soldier in WoK because he still thought he needed to achieve this to please his father, I think he wanted it because he’s always wanted it and he wasn’t going to stop wanting it until he actually tried for it. Now he has reached his goal, now he is able to be a soldier, he seems to have finally accepted what he really wants is being a scholar.
On the reverse, we know exactly how Adolin feels next to his father: insignificant, unworthy. We know exactly what Adolin thinks of Dalinar: a God, a man he can never hope to even come close to matching. Whereas with Renarin, we have a few scenes which seem to indicate a closer relationship such as when Renarin stands up to support his father or when Dalinar supports Renarin with the scholars.
Hence, I wouldn’t say Renarin currently has a “daddy problem”. I may be wrong, but I do not read it within the present day narrative. No matter how it started, it seems relatively healthy today.
@83 What makes you think the Kholin boys don’t BOTH have daddy issues? It seems pretty clear to me they both do. The only question is how and to what degree? With Adolin it’s pretty obvious how badly it affected him. With Renarin it’s unclear it could be as mild as it appears or it could be that BOTH boys were EQUALLY affected just in wildly different ways. It’s hard to say because we don’t get to see inside Renarin’s head as much as we do Adolin’s.
The one thing I am sure of is that Brandon LOVES to play with foils. ESPECIALLY here in the Stormlight Archive. And that the two brothers are a pair of foils for each other. he is doing that for SOME reason.
@83: A valid point. The reason behind my reasoning is nothing appears to be wrong in between Dalinar/Renarin during the present day narrative. We know their respective pass is troubled, but there are no moments where father and son appear at odds during the current timeline. It is true though, in the absence of viewpoints, it is hard to evaluate how Renarin feels about his father, we can only use the clues we have.
I identified the Dalinar/Adolin relationship as unhealthy in WoR, but the Dalinar/Renarin one always seemed to be the more balanced of the two. I could be wrong. Their pass IS very unhealthy, so how much of it translated into relationship issues in between Dalinar/Renarin, it is near impossible to evaluate. I however noted how it was Renarin who supported his father the most, who seemed the closest to Dalinar.
You say Adolin/Renarin are foils to each other. This is the first time I hear about this. Can you expand?
@85 keep in mind I haven’t read everything in a while and I may be reading to much into things, but: Adolin is external. He’s expressive about his problems and worries (to a degree) such as when he was worried about his father’s having fits of madness and his strength is obvious, but his a softside doesn’t go noticed as much. Where as Renarin is internal. Is softside and his kindness are obvious but not as many people notice his bitterness. To quote the chapter 36 and 37 reread.
And few people seem to notice the burden society places on EITHER one of these charcters. One is pressured to take up a duty he and a legacy. And the other is pressured to abdicate and go to the ardentia, and loked down on for being useless. And yet they love each other dearly. (Woah I just got some Siri and Vivienna vibes there.) No wonder Brandon had Adolin interact with Vivi.
@6: Very interesting analysis. I do agree with you. I have written out similar analysis once, but I never went as far as to refer to each brother as a foil to the other.
I too noted how Adolin is the external brother, the one who always appears strong to everyone around, the one who never falters, never makes a mistake, but he does have a soft vulnerable side he seldom allows others to see. We saw glimpses of this in WoR, but in OB, it was made more obvious.
I also once said Renrin had a hard side he kept hidden, a duress which seldom comes out. All people see is his weakness, even I tend to focus on his weaknesses, but he has repetitively jumped in the middle of danger on more than one occasion.
It is a fair point to state Renarin has been pressured into going into the Ardentia. He seemed so well-suited for it, I never read it as actual pressure. I guess we could say the same about Adolin, he is such a natural at leadership, it doesn’t seem like pressure when Dalinar pushes him to become more.
One thing I did recently say, in fact I think I wrote in an earlier post within this thread or perhaps it was last week, but I did say how Renarin struggles with what he thinks he should want while Adolin struggles with others think he should want. All very similar indeed. Renarin does not want to admit he wants to be scholar while Adolin does not want to admit he does not want to be the man Dalinar wants him to be. He does not want to pay the price of being honorable.
I can see how being pressured into going in the Ardentia might have pushed Renarin into not going. This is a behavior I can understand and relate to. Sometimes, when everyone tells you one thing, you rebel against the idea even if this thing isn’t a bad thing at all.
@87
I agree with this 100%
Basically to quote Jack McCoy from Law & Order “When you argue I feel the instinctive need to argue back”
I like some anti heroes, but I do tend to think the trope is overused. I also like straight-up heroes that are just good people – not perfect, or without conflict/complexities/wrong choices, but generally have good motives and use good means :) But thankfully I think Stormlight has a decent spectrum of that.
Reading Teft’s statement about addiction (“It’s the storming world that’s the problem”) kind of strikes a parallel to me as Moash’s idea that everybody is broken, not just him. Both I think are dealing with this idea in different (albeit destructive) ways. (Ah, I see aggie1 @10 already twigged to this ;) )
Regarding Moash and why people don’t like him – I don’t think he’s a reliable narrator, so while (as a woman who has been described as various epithets) I understand the resistance to say, ‘he should just be more pleasant and smile more!’, I also think he’s probably being deliberately obtuse and bringing his own anger and toxicity to the fore, and people can sense that. It’s unfortunately a self perpetuating cycle. It’s one I’m aware of within myself, as when I’m not managing my anxiety properly, I can be VERY prickly and abrasive, even above and beyond the dissonance of a woman who is more assertive than normal. And that’s on me. I’ve also had moments (none really since my young adult days) where I’ve nearly excluded myself from some group in a dramatic way due to my own insecurity (thankfully none of those relationships were ever permanently damaged).
And even beyond that, from a perfectly pragmatic point of view, there’s a point where, fair or not, YOU are the one with the power to change and influence, and sure, maybe he shouldn’t HAVE to be nicer, is it better to be right and miserable, or to extend some grace and actually affect change? This is something I personally struggle with a lot in a variety of situations (especially in our currently fractured society – what is the best way to navigate it, and can it/should it be mended or should we just try to write off the other side completely…), so I don’t have an easy answer and I don’t think there IS one answer. Sometimes all out stubbornness and refusing to back down is what is needed, sometimes meeting somebody halfway (or more than halfway) is what is needed. And some people will still be assholes and look askance at an ‘uppity’ darkeyes – but as was seen in the other chapter, there IS change brewing. I was bullied as a child and for a long time had a huge chip on my shoulder about this (regarding other women, actually, and for a long time would pretty much refuse to engage with women because they were all the same, assuming a foregone conclusion, etc) so I relate to walking around with this kind of storm cloud – but then having to break the cycle for my own well being.
I had my phase where I was kind of proud of how little I cared about social norms, etc – when, really…I was just being rude and inconsiderate. And it was ultimately the mark of insecurity and self loathing. As aggie1 also mentions – eventually I found a place where I realized I could be comfortable with who I was and not compromise on that, but not just turn my nose up at anybody else who came my way. I will never be an inherently likable and pleasant person – that’s just not how I am. I struggle to connect with people as well, and looking back, I can see where some of my traits have caused issues or were offputting, rude, or even damaged friendships. I have had, like any other skill, to teach myself a few of those skills because I do like to connect with people, and I think it’s also important to not cause discomfort to people when you can help it and it’s a reasonable modification. I know not everybody will like me, and I’m okay with that. I’ve found a niche for myself. Yes, it’s unfair I have to try harder at things that come naturally to people (my big hang up, that I still succumb to bitterness about, actually, is physical attractiveness and the privilege that comes with it), but I know there are things I do very easily that others can’t do or have to work for. And I’ve found people that value that. I realize none of these things are on any level what somebody like Moash has dealt with or even people more marginalized than me in our own world. But that’s the perspective I’m coming from.
@AeronaGreenjoy – I’ll just say that I think it’s completely okay to realize that sometimes you have to let go of a dream. I also roll my eyes a little at the ‘when you stop trying, the dream dies’ kind of attitude because my practical/logical mind can’t help but think, ‘but what about those things that really aren’t possible’? I certainly have stories in my own life of striving for things longer than I should have because I felt like I ‘should’ and didn’t want to be a quitter. But on the other hand, I think there ARE contexts where this kind of mindset does work – where we have to keep pushing ourselves to try, or hoping for something better.
@89: You say:
OMG. I so relate to this as I so did the same… I would walk away, leave, go see elsewhere if I am not there in an attempt to make statement while internally hoping someone would care enough to go after me. No one ever did except the one I ended marrying. In my case, I was so convince no one cared about me, I was provoking situations where I would either force them to care or finally absorb the gruesome truth they don’t.
I relate to this as well. Anyone who’s able to see how much conflict my person seems to create within this fandom can gather it isn’t particularly better within the real-world. All my life I have tried to find a place where I’d belong and each time I felt like I finally found one, it either disappeared or I got thrown out of it. At some point, I just stopped trying or I delude myself into thinking I have stopped trying.
Something has always been wrong with me: too talkative, too passionate, too stubborn, too forceful, too opinionated. No one like people such as myself but I can’t help… being me.
And I loved reading it. It is so much like my own though I recently told myself I would never have a friend again. I’ll have to be satisfied with my family which is more than other people do get and I love them very much, but sometimes, I wish I had a friend. Just one.
On dreams: It depends what kind of dreams you are trying to achieve: some merely require more perseverance, others need to be reworked to become achievable, but there is value is not giving up as soon as it becomes difficult, no matter the circumstances.
Thanks :)
Ah, yes, I’ve definitely done the ‘leave to see if anybody is following me’ thing, but I’ve also done the dramatic ‘I’ll leave the group because everybody is better off without me!’ thing as well. Thankfully it didn’t stick, and while we’ve scattered since college/grad school, we still have varying levels of closeness. And looking back, I think we were all struggling with various things, so we all forgave each others’ quirkiness to an extent.
@91: Oh I did leave the group on purpose because “everybody is better off without me” too and I wish growing older had help me change the behavior. However, each time I face, once again strong adversity, I fall back onto my old habits of pulling out a dramatic ending to it all.
For instance, if my posts cause so much anger and downright mean responses, then why am I even bothering? I still don’t even know… I am torn in between needing to have others understand how much it hurts when they do this while not wanting to see they have scored a point, being the sole player of a battle no one is even aware is being fought. It is so hard to not get rid of the habit when every group I ever tried to join ended up having something negative to say about me or they just rightfully hate me which… is their right. They have the right to hate me. They do not have to like me, but I wish they did. How does one ever jungle with this all?
I wish I knew. Worst is, I don’t think I will ever know. I don’t feel old, but I know I am old enough to know some things will never change. I will always have to fight to feel some modicum of belonging while knowing it is more likely I’ll get shove out for one reason or another. I fight a battle I will never win yet I am still foolish enough to try.
These things… I thought they were supposed to stop happening once you reach adulthood, once you reach a given age, no one was supposed to behave this way any longer, but it isn’t true. These things… They still happen. To me. On the Internet. In my real-life. All the time. Right now, I feel like Moash: bad things happened and yeah, it is my fault though it never were clear which fault was truly mine. I can’t see it, but surely it is my fault. It can’t be no one else’s fault. Everyone cannot be wrong about the same person: they have to be right.
I’m glad you have found a group of friends which like you for who you are, with whom you can be yourself without fearing judgment nor rejection. This is a precious gift: never let go of it.
@Gepeto: I don’t see much if any anger against you. Firm disagreement, sometimes, but not anger. Just my perception.
@93: There’s been anger. Personal attacks such as “I am just an Adolin’s fan” and as such my argumentation is worthless. I am distasteful, every single one of my posts is distasteful and should not be read. I am stubborn, condescending and not interesting enough to be worth the bother to read nor to talk to.
I will also skip the times where I saw other fans publicly disgrace me, talking against my back, turning me into an object of laughter and ridicule usually because I wrote, yet another, post on Adolin and OMG it was long. It doesn’t matter if my post is right on topic, if I wasn’t the one to bring about this particular topic, if others seem interested in having the conversation, if I wrote it, then it should be dismissed as meaningless. And laughted at.
If I get angry, then I get called out for it. If I try to stay calm and invite my bullies to stay calm too, I get called out for trying to keep everyone cool because that too is something to be used against me. If I trespass the boundaries and apologize for it, then it isn’t enough.
This is just a subset of the negativeness towards my person I had to deal with and this merely is within the SA fandom.
Sometimes, it isn’t I necessarily want others to like me, they have the right to not like me, I can’t force them, but I wish, at the very least, they’d respect me and the fact I love this series and want to contribute.
Of course, this isn’t everyone. Most people are actually very nice and if they dislike me, they have the decency to keep it to themselves and not engage into public bashing, but I still have a hard time finding another involved fan who’s had to face as much negativity and aggressivity as myself.
And yeah, it is all my fault and these days I feel the real reason for it is I just do not know how not to be me. How not to talk with forceful passion over the things I enjoy.
I haven’t seen that here, personally – I mean, I know I’ve had posts (here and on other threads) that get reacted to, or gotten into discussions with people that seemed to misinterpret things or hold to their own viewpoint too strongly or seemed to be needlessly generalizing/dismissive (more on Star Wars threads as that is where I tend to get more passionate). There are a few posters I know I will never see eye to eye with, and a few that I suspect think I’m a moron (but it might also just be due to their own shortcomings in communication). It’s the nature of both fandom and the fact that this is all written so you can’t always get the tone/intent. But I don’t think there is any kind of widespread agenda against you, at least not from an outsider’s view. I have at times had to learn when to just let things go because it’s not causing me any joy to participate and sometimes I do remind myself ‘I’ve said this already, I don’t have to speak up every single time’ because sometimes it stresses me out in a weird way and almost makes participating on sites like this feel like an obligation instead of just something I do for fun. (I kind of feel this way about Facebook as well – even more so since there’s a LOT of heated discussion that an go on and sometimes I really just need to step back. Thankfully I find Tor much more pleasant than facebook).
Anyway, more to the point of the old discussion – actually, I can’t say I’ve really found that group anymore. As I said, we’ve mostly scattered (although I did just call one for his birthday). My husband and kids are my main source of socialization, and both of us have noticed that we tend to be on the ‘outside’ when it comes to all the parent groups/socialization at our kids’ school, etc. I do have some acquaintances at work that I go out with every month and or so but even they aren’t people I’d call in the middle of the night with some life issue. So, I do kind of have that same sense of knowing that I’m just a bit outside the fringe. I’m mostly okay with it but sometimes it sucks.
@Geoeto as someone who used to be against you I apologize. It just took me a bit to “Get you” such as it were. Sometimes I get frustrated and need to back away, even when backing away is the LAST THING I want to do. That being said I am glad I stuck around and got to know you better, and I am glad you stuck around as well. I would have missed out on so much if I had given up on getting to know you. I feel you were worth the effort.
@95: Honestly, no one would be able to really have a complete outside perspective… not everything I mentioned happened during this re-read.
I always felt there was a thin line in between disagreeing with someone, not enjoying engaging with someone and downright bluntly shove it to someone’s face. Perhaps it is just me who’s more sensitive to this than other people, perhaps I just do not know how to do the “social media/fandom” thing, perhaps I am indeed too old for those and the things which hurt me merely are the by-product of my own shortcomings.
And perhaps other fandoms truly are worst which means if I were to engage in those, I’d witness a stronger backlash.
Perhaps also my perception of how others feel about myself is completely off though I did not hallucinate this time when they all gloat against me. Elsewhere. Known fans. Respected fans. Fans Brandon has often inter-acted with. Fans Brandon has given priviledge to. Fans Brandon appreciates, not nobodies no one cares about. Not people from here though. I wouldn’t be here if they were here too.
And yes, there has been many times when I wonder if my hobby was worth investing time in given how emotionally difficult it has sometimes been to withstand it. I have made decisions based on this, but this re-read. This, I like. I don’t want to give it up. I just wish trolls didn’t see fit to attack me every three weeks for no valid reasons.
I don’t engage in discussions on Facebooks. My Facebook has my personal name, it has pictures from my children, my Facebooks “friends” are real-life people I could meet in the streets. Hence, I keep is casual, I avoid any topic which could cause dissention, whatever it may be.
And yeah us too, friends, they scattered with time. It’s OK, kind of, we aren’t really the “large group of friends” kind of people anyway, but sometimes, I’d be nice to have, just one friend to talk to. You know, like on TV series? They all have those very close friendships. Sometimes, I wish I had one of those, but maybe it’s not for me. Maybe I’d be a lousy friend so it is for the best.
@96: Rest assured. At no moment was I referring to you. We’ve disagreed, true, but I never felt it was personal nor outside the scope of expected disagreement within passionate discussions. And thanks for the nice words. Many people just don’t bother trying to understand others better. Sometimes, I may even be this person.
Just a note to say that we moderators appreciate the discussion of civility and the recognition that there’s value in learning to listen to differing viewpoints and opinions, and getting to know how different people express themselves, all of which we very much agree with and support. However, we also think it’s important to understand that the purpose of these discussion threads are to discuss the chapters and books in question, and the conversation should always relate back to the fiction in some way. We know that it can be hard not to take/make the discussion personal, at times, but we ask that everyone participating in these discussions keep the site’s commenting guidelines in mind and try to stay focused on the topics touched on in the reread post each week, rather than focusing on personal disagreements or conflicts. And of course, if anyone feels that they are being attacked or harassed by another commenter, the best way to deal with that is by flagging the comment and letting the moderators know that there is an issue. Thanks, all.
Thanks for keeping this place a pleasant venue :)
@89 Lisamarie: Yes! That’s how I feel about a lot of things about Moash– that it is not an either/or situation, but that both things can be true at the same time. He can seem scary because his culture paints darkeyed men such as him as scary, and he can storm about eminateing hostility and seem scary. Both can be true at the same time, and even feed on one another. I feel like Kaladin is in the same boat and does the same, but Kaladin is a lot more charismatic and a lot more skilled at leadership, so can often push things to his favor, at least up to a certain point.
I feel like Moash has a genuine grievance against Elhokar, and that justice is elusive for darkeyed citizens of Alethkar. I also feel like Moash is obsessed with getting revenge, to the point he runs roughshod over anything in the way of him getting it without care how much harm he could be doing. For me this is another case where both things can be true. Moash can be right and wrong at the same time.