Hey, it’s Thursday again, and time to get back to Shadesmar! This week we get a lot of irritation from Mraize’s manipulation of Shallan (and Radiant, and Veil), as he persuades her to do more of his dirty work. Then Adolin gets a series of disappointments from a legendary deity, as the High Judge turns out to be… less than reasonable.
Reminder: We’ll be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now. If you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of The Stormlight Archive (this includes Edgedancer and Dawnshard as well as the entirety of Rhythm of War), best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s discussion, we mention the true name of the Ghostblood leader, who is known from the Mistborn series. If you haven’t read it, what are you waiting for?
Heralds: Kalak (Kelek). Willshapers (Transportation, Cohesion). Resolute/Builder. Role: Maker.
Nalan (Nale), Herald of Justice. Skybreakers (Gravitation, Division). Just/Confident. Role: Judge.
A: On a bet, both Heralds represent Kalak in this chapter: Kalak, because there he is, and Nalan, because Kalak holds the office of High Judge for the honorspren in Lasting Integrity.
Icon: Pattern, for a Shallan POV.
Epigraph:
Oh… Father… Seven thousand years.
A: Irritating as I find Kalak in this chapter, this thought really makes me feel awful for all the Heralds. Seven thousand years of battles, torture, and the guilt of giving in to human weakness and leaving one to suffer for them all. It really is incomprehensible.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Shallan, Adolin
WHEN: 1175.4.9.5 (Immediately following Chapter 78)
WHERE: Lasting Integrity
(Note: For the “when” notations, we are using this wonderful timeline provided by the folks at The 17th Shard.)
RECAP: Radiant and Veil take turns yelling at Mraize for withholding information about their mission, since he obviously knew Restares was actually Kalak. Despite recognizing Mraize’s tactics as manipulation, Shallan is drawn to his suggestion that she kill Kalak and take his place as High Judge, ensuring that Adolin wins his case. Meanwhile, Adolin meets Kalak, and is distinctly underwhelmed by the High Judge. He requests “trial by witness” and Kalak agrees, setting the date and location as the day after tomorrow in the forum. Adolin is disturbed by the implication that the outcome is a foregone conclusion, but there’s nothing he can do about it.
Chapter Chat—Crazy Heralds, or “Oh, look who’s here!”
“How could you not tell me this?” Radiant demanded as she knelt and shouted at the cube on the floor. “Restares is not only the honorspren’s High Judge, he’s one of the storming Heralds!”
A: Shallan/Radiant/Veil’s reaction to Kalak’s identity is simultaneously hilarious and completely justified. While in one sense I can understand Mraize keeping that secret, because she probably wouldn’t have taken the job, it’s almost scary to think what could have gone wrong if she’d asked the wrong questions of the wrong people.
P: Yeah, I’d be up in arms, too. To sic them on a Herald and not bother to tell them is so slimy, just like Mraize himself.
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
“You told us we’d know what to do when we found Restares,” Radiant told Mraize. “Well, we are here now and we have no idea how to proceed.”
“What did you do the moment you found out?” Mraize said.
“Cursed your name.”
“Then?”
“Contacted you directly to curse at you some more.”
“Which was the correct choice. See, you knew exactly what to do.”
A: Much as I loathe Mraize, this exchange was pretty rich. I mean… I hate to admit it, but he is intelligent in a serpently sort of way.
P: I cracked up at “Cursed your name.” I pretty much do that anytime he’s on screen.
A: And well deserved, too.
“Your refusal to give me important information makes me question what else you held back. Now I’m questioning if what I’m to do here is possibly against my interests, and the interests of those I love. So let me ask plainly. Why am I really here? Why are you so interested in Kelek? And why—explicitly—should I continue on this path?”
Mraize did not respond immediately. “Hello, Veil,” he finally said. “I’m glad you came out to speak with me.”
“Answer my questions, Mraize.”
A: Go Veil! I love her response here (even though I didn’t quote all of it). Answer. My. Questions. Unfortunately, his way of answering questions is a matter of manipulating her to do what he wants, as always. At least it takes a bit of work on his part, this time.
P: She really gives it to him here. And she’s right. What else is he holding back from them?
A: Right? You know there’s a ton—and no matter what promises he makes about letting her into all the secrets, you know there will be things he’ll decide she doesn’t need to know. At least for the moment, she’s holding out for more information, so good for her.
“If you want me to do this, I need to know why. What specifically do you expect to learn from him?”
“Our master, Thaidakar, has an… affliction similar to that of the Heralds. He needs access to a Herald to learn more about his state so he might save himself from the worst of its effects.”
“That’s not good enough,” Veil said. “Radiant and Shallan won’t let me do your dirty work for such a petty reason.”
A: Heh. Both petty, and not petty… Kelsier wouldn’t call it petty at all, though we don’t know a lot about his current state of mind. But I can certainly see why Veil (and Radiant and Shallan) would balk at stabbing a Herald just because he might be able to provide some small amount of information about being a Cognitive Shadow for some unknown “master.” He may be Mraize’s master, but Shallan has zero allegiance to him—and probably would have actual antipathy if she knew him.
P: Yeah, I doubt Shallan would care much for Kelsier were she to meet him. And Mraize’s explanation for why they should help isn’t quite persuasive enough for what he expects them to do.
He, along with the other eight, abandoned their Oathpact and stranded Talenelat—the Bearer of Agonies—alone in Damnation, to withstand torture for thousands of years. The enemy has returned, but have the Heralds come to help? No. At best they hide. At worst, their madness leads them to hasten the world’s destruction.
A: Gah. Serpent. Snake-in-the-grass. (Snake-in-the-rockbuds?) I despise this man. He’s twisting everything about the Heralds to make it sound like the current Desolation is their fault, even though Taln was profoundly grateful to the rest for letting him keep things at bay for 4500 years. On top of that, he’s pretending that he actually cares about what happens to Roshar—as if he weren’t perfectly happy to work with Raboniel (or any other Fused) to further his own ends.
P: Snake is right. He’ll say anything that he thinks might sway Shallan, et al. into doing his bidding. Even lying.
“If only there were a way that someone—having locked away Kelek’s soul—could take his place. Wear his face. Pass judgment, vindicating your husband and commanding the honorspren to join the war again. If only we had sent a person capable of single-handedly turning the tide of this war through the use of a targeted illusion.”
In that moment, Veil lost control to Shallan.
A: AAAAAAAAA! He makes me want to scream. (I know this is more about Mraize than Kalak. Sorry.) Manipulative, weaselly parasite. He knows exactly how to get to her: Give her a way to guarantee Adolin’s safety, and she’ll try it. Never mind that a) she doesn’t know enough to pull it off and b) if she fails to pull it off, it will guarantee exactly the opposite. He squashes all her objections before she can work them out, and even though she recognizes the manipulation for what it is, she accepts it. Sigh. I can’t even entirely be angry at her, though it drives me nuts that she does this. She’s constitutionally incapable of thinking straight at this point in time, poor child.
P: Of course, he brings up Adolin, knowing that will pull Shallan in, if nothing else will. She’d do anything for Adolin and Mraize knows it. He is foul.
“So I will revise the deal as requested. […] you will not only have access to the knowledge you seek, but also have a say in what we are doing. Our grand plans.”
Inside, Veil perked up at this.
A: In return for stabbing Kalak—which, as we learn from the epigraphs, wouldn’t work as intended anyway—she gets information and influence. Sigh. The things she’s always felt were just out of her grasp, no matter how much magical stuff she can do.
P: It makes me wonder about the hierarchy of the organization if she can gain such power (just) by killing a Herald. No small feat, I know, but with her Surges and her skills, it would be relatively simple.
A: Somehow I doubt she’d be given all that much control, though he might be able to convince her that she had. She might get more information, but there’s no way she’d get all of it, and her “say in what we are doing” would likely be manipulated by what information he chose to give her.
“Strike at a Herald,” she said. “It sounds wrong, Mraize. Very wrong.”
“You are weak,” he said. “You know it.”
She bowed her head.
A: UGH. I’m so glad she came to her senses before she did it. It would be wrong for her to kill (or just trap) Kalak, and she knows it. I was furious at Moash for killing Jezrien (and many other reasons, of course), and I think I’d have been nearly as furious if Mraize manipulated Shallan into killing Kalak. (Does this make me unfair, if I blame Moash and not Shallan? If I blame Mraize and not the Fused? Not sure, but if I am, I guess I am.)
P: If you’re wrong, then so am I. I already hated Moash by the time he killed Jezrien, but that was like the cherry on top of the crem sundae of loathing.
He should probably feel reverence for the High Judge. … Many people back home thought of him as the Stormfather, and though that had never been true, he was one of the most ancient beings in all of creation. A god to many. An immortal soldier for justice and Honor.
He was also short, with thinning hair. He felt like the type of man you’d find administering some minor city in the backwater of Alethkar.
A: LOL. “Minor bureaucrat” is exactly the vibe he gives off. I hope in one of the books we get to see what the Heralds were like at the beginning of the Oathpact. We’ve never really seen Kalak being anything but weak, and it always makes me wonder. Was he always one of the weakest ones? Did he (like his iconography) always seem a bit of a child compared to the others? Was he a heroic figure, once upon a time?
P: I mean, they all had to have been heroic figures, right? At least in my mind, which I admit only works half as well as it should.
[…] Ash or Taln, the two Heralds who now resided at Urithiru…
Well, his acquaintance with those two caused Adolin to lower his expectations in this particular case.
A: I have to admit, they’d be pretty disappointing to someone who was raised on Rosharan legends! All those stories about the Heralds and the Tranquiline Halls and all… At the same time, I suspect they earned those legends, back in the day. Just thinking about what they agreed to when they accepted the Oathpact gives me the shivers. I so badly want to see them that way, whether it’s in someone’s flashbacks, or Leshwi’s memories, or whatever. I’d just like to see them being heroic. (I guess we got a tiny moment when Dalinar connected to Nalan. I’d like more.)
P: I’d like more, too! I want to see them all in their glory! I want to see who they were before they reached the point at which they abandoned Taln.
A: That’s exactly it. I want to see their glory days.
“This is Adolin Kholin, son of Dalinar Kholin.”
“The Bondsmith?” Kelek said, and shied away from Adolin. “Good heavens! Why have you let him in here?”
A: Sigh. Oh my. And why, pray tell, is the son of the Bondsmith so fearsome? Is Kalak afraid the Bondsmith can reach him somehow, or has he heard about Adolin’s reputation as a duelist and fears being stuck with pointy things (even if they can’t kill him)? I’ve got to assume it’s something about Dalinar’s powers, but… I sure don’t know what. Maybe he thinks Dalinar will Come For Him (cue scary music) when his hiding place is found out.
P: This struck me as odd, too. I can’t fathom why a Herald would shy away from Adolin, or from Dalinar’s name.
“Your current battle? Against Odium?” Kelek laughed. “Boy, you’re doomed.”
A: Um… okay… So much for being afraid of Adolin, but what a reaction! Even if Kalak is a wimp and a nutcase, that’s got to be a bit discouraging for Adolin to hear.
P: Completely discouraging. He’s there to seek assistance from the honorspren and their “leader” (who happens to be a Herald) scoffs at him and tells him he’s doomed? Poor Adolin.
“You’re going to try him for the Recreance?” Kalak asked, looking around uncertainly at the others near him. “Isn’t that a bit extreme?”
“He offered, Holy Lord.”
“Not a smart one, is he?”
A: I don’t know quite why, but this cracks me up. Kalak is a bit… mercurial. Maybe Mraize is right—he’s so erratic, perhaps Shallan could get away with impersonating him!
P: They do share a bit of eccentricity with one another.
A: And as pinball as his behavior is, who’d be able to tell anyway?
“Trial by witness?” Kelek said. “Well, that would make this mess end faster. What do you think, Sekeir?”
“I don’t think this would be a wise—”
“Hold on; I don’t care what you think,” Kelek said. “…Fine, boy, trial by witness it is. We can start it… um, the day after tomorrow? Is that acceptable for everyone?”
A: I’m just laughing and shaking my head. What an incredible “High Judge” they have. I wouldn’t let him judge a turtle race.
P: That would certainly be unfair to the turtles.
“Um… let’s have it at the forum, shall we? I guess everyone will want to watch, and that has the most seats.”
“Object to this,” Blended whispered to Adolin. “Do not let it be. You don’t want to have to persuade the audience as well as the judge.”
A: Which is, of course, what they end up with: a mostly hostile audience, all set on both judging and entrapping Adolin. And Kalak really doesn’t care. He already knows how it will come out—or at least he assumes he does. With, I’ll admit, good reason. No one could have anticipated Mayalaran’s incredible intervention.
P: I daresay that Maya gave the storming best testimony that any of them had ever seen.
A: I get the chills just thinking about it.
How on Roshar was that ever considered a deity? Adolin thought, in a daze. The Heralds had fallen so far.
Either that, or… perhaps these ten people had always been only that. People. After all, crowning a man a king or highprince didn’t necessarily make him anything grander than he’d been. Adolin knew that firsthand.
A: Good insight from our young highprince…
P: Good insight, yes, but still so very self-deprecating. I do this to myself all the time. I see you, Adolin Kholin.
A: It’s part of his charm; he knows he’s good at the things he’s worked hard to master (like dueling), but doesn’t recognize the value of things that are natural to his personality (like treating people well, irrespective of their social status). He’s such a funny combination of unconscious arrogance and humility, and the way he sees his “unfitness” for own role is both frustrating and endearing. But it definitely puts him in a position to recognize that the same can be true of others—even Heralds.
Music, Mechanisms, and Manifestations of Light
When she twisted that plane of the cube, it turned easily and came off, revealing a small compartment that contained an intricate metal dagger with a gemstone on the end of the grip.
A: This is very similar in description to the one Moash (curse him) used to kill Jezrien, and from Mraize’s instructions should do the same thing. So… why does Mraize have one of these? Did he get it from the Fused? If so, when? I’m… confused. I could believe he made arrangements for this sort of thing when he gave Lift to Raboniel, but that can’t be this knife, because Shallan was long gone before they had that conversation. Or can seons transport objects as well as voices? I don’t remember that…
P: I don’t believe they can, no. But it’s definitely curious how Mraize got ahold of one of those blades.
A: Is it safe to assume it’s modeled on the fabrials the Fused use to drain Stormlight from Radiants? If so, and if Mraize has some artifabrians of his own (or can commission fabrials from experts) and somehow got access to one of the Fused fabrials… but this is just speculation. It could just as easily be the case that scholars on some other planet have figured out how to suck the soul of a Cognitive Shadow into a gemstone, and now I’ve given myself a severe case of the creeps.
Spren and Shadesmar
“I have one day, it seems, to prepare you to be thrown into the angerspren’s den…”
A: That sounds… foreboding. Apparently angerspren in Shadesmar are, like painspren, “harmmore. Very harmmore.”
Bruised and Broken
But Shallan was surprised by how much she responded to that offer. A full Ghostblood? That was the way… The way to…
A: Oh, Shallan. We won’t actually learn what she’s thinking about for a few more chapters, but I’m reasonably sure this is about her idea of becoming the monster she believes herself to be. She’s got this idea that she can just be the thoroughly despicable person who could kill both her parents and her spren and not be hurt by the memories. Somehow, she sees the Ghostbloods as her means to escape her identity and disappear forever. I suspect she hasn’t considered that she might kill Pattern in the process, and that she might make herself useless to Mraize. I don’t know about y’all, but I’m betting that without her Lightweaving ability, Mraize would dump her in a skinny minute. But she’s desperate.
P: Desperate and oh, so damaged. You know, I never considered that she might want to be a Ghostblood because she felt she deserved no better from the things she’d done in her young life. That’s just heartbreaking.
A: Isn’t it, though? At least, that’s the way I read it—a combination of longing to be free from the painful memories, and feeling like she deserves to be known as an inhuman monster—and that she doesn’t deserve a single good thing she’s got. Especially Adolin.
Brilliant Buttresses
“The irony is quite poetic.”
“Mmm…” Pattern said from beside the door, where he was watching for Adolin.
“What?” Radiant asked him. “You like irony now too?”
“Irony tastes good. Like sausage.”
A: Pattern!!! You goof. I love this line.
P: Honor love our special little Cryptic. He makes me laugh so much when we see him in Shadesmar.
We’ll be leaving further speculation and discussion to you in the comments, and hope to join you there! Next week, we’ll be back with chapter 83, in which Venli does some very, very cool things.
Alice lives in the Pacific Northwest with her husband and two kids, and hopes that summer will someday arrive. The rain is getting a bit much, this far into June.
Paige resides in New Mexico, of course. She’s thoroughly enjoying the Yankees so far this season. Links to her other writing are available in her profile.
Thanks as always, dear ladies! Enjoyed the conversation and my coffee.
And yes, Mraize is the serpent tempting Eve with what sounds like a very good idea that would have terrible results. I always sympathize with Eve.
Thinking on this conversation here, and the commentery – I think I would definitely be more tempted by knowledge than power. So I can kinda see how Mraize tries to hook her in!
Knowing who Mraize’s real master is, the fact he always keeps a secret really shows us just how annoying the philosophy of “there’s always another secret” truly is. He uses that as a weapon, promising some truths while keeping others back, and being incredibly cheeky while he is at it. I’ve said this before but this book really had me not like Mraize. Guy is a master manuiplator, and you can tell he was using Veil as his true weapon, he figured she was the one who wanted the secrets the most and she thought the most like him. That’s probably why he was actually upset when he hears what happens to her.
What, exactly, is the issue with Cognitive Shadows that Kelsier is trying to avoid? Madness? The Heralds are bound to the Roshar system, so it can’t be about trying to leave his system.
It occurs to me that you may have things reversed. I wonder if Mraize didn’t supply the dagger to the Fused in the first place. It would make sense that he would do so in order to get the gem holding Jezrien to study. Capturing Kelek then provides a chance to find ways to extend the time he can survive while trapped, or see if being in Shadesmar makes a difference.
@@.-@ We should remember that this series is inbetween Era 1 and Era 2, what with Harmony’s message that he needs an agent. I’m guessing this is Thaikaadar’s research on how to get a physical body back. I think there’s two ways for him to do it, 1. either capture the Heralds, who he has heard has a similar issue that he has, and question them on how to get a physcial body or 2. see if it’s possible to absorb a Cognitive being into the knife, see if you can carry it to other worlds, and than release it, thus finding a loophole for him to be free and be on other worlds. He just didn’t expect them to be so connected to Roshar that the dagger just straight out kills them
@@.-@:
Kel’s not bound to Roshar, but he is bound to Scadriel. So yes, he does want to leave the system. But the madness is probably a factor too, from what Zahel says.
@6:
Kelsier has already had his body back for hundreds of years by this point– he showed up in SoScad ten years after the Catecendre
@7 – Right, I was saying that the Heralds are bound to Roshar, so they wouldn’t know how to leave a system. My point was that Kelsier couldn’t be after them for that info.
Alice. I agree with you that Mraize is a cremling and manipulating Shallan, Veil & Radiant (and many others) to do his bidding. Yet, if you look at things from his perspective, his efforts up to this point have been brilliant. For all of Shallan’s mental troubles, she has been a remarkable resource for Mraize and the Ghostbloods. She got into Amaram’s room and gave Mraize a detailed account of what Amaram and the Sons of Honor was up to. Shallan was solely responsible for finding Urithiru. Shallan was key to chasing Re-Shephir from Urithiru and was able to get Sja-anat to consider having one of her Enlightened Spren investigate Mraize to see if the Spren will form a Nahel Bond with Mraize. Finally, she was able to infiltrate the Sons of Honor and neutralize Ialai, effectively ending the Sons of Honor. None of the other Ghostbloods had the skills (plus a fair share of luck) to accomplish such tasks. Mraize knew enough of Shallan to manipulate her to do his bidding vis-à-vis Kalak.
However, Alice, I agree with you that even had Shallan done exactly what Mraize wanted, he still would have withheld a key portion of the information Mraize promised Shallan and such influence would not been as significant as Mraize made it out to be. Mraize is not one to ever discard a tool which he can use in the future.
Alice and Paige. I am sure we will get to see the Heralds being heroic and some of their accomplishments that lead them to be asked to be Heralds in the first place. Unfortunately, I think we will have to wait for books 6-10 for such scenes. I believe that the prologues in Books 6-10 will the moment the Heralds become Heralds, form the Oathpact, Honor giving each of them their Honorblades and the events that day leading up to that moment.
I wonder what Kalak’s reaction would have been had he been in the Forum when Maya spoke (and won the trial for Adolin). For this reason only, I wish he had overpowered his guards and gone to the Forum. Even if not serving as High Judge. I believe witnessing what Maya does firsthand would have had a positive effect on Kalak.
Thanks for reading my musings.
aka the musespren
Responding to our hosts’ Moash comments: I find myself at odds with most of the fandom. Moash strikes me as fatally weak, not the kick-the-dog must-be-hated figure so many of you see. Yes, he’s done terrible things, when directly being influenced by Odium. It’s identical to, oh, maybe our viewpoint character Venli when she was Voidspren-influenced and destroyed an entire culture while starting a genocidal war? Or (MISTBORN SPOILERS) Marsh under Ruin’s control killing and torturing his way across a world?
The other and opposing place I diverge from most fans is my utter boredom with played-out, poorly-characterized Taravangian. But I (continue to) digress.
A: We’ve never really seen Kalak being anything but weak, and it always makes me wonder. Was he always one of the weakest ones? Did he (like his iconography) always seem a bit of a child compared to the others?
Wasn’t it Kalak in the very first prologue who came late to the Aharietiam and had to be led through it?
@10 Except he wasn’t under the influence of Odium when he made the the one mistake that led him down to all of the terrible things he had done. He chose to betray Kaladin’s trust and to try to kill Elohkar all on his own. Than, he decides on his own that humanity isn’t worth it and gave up utterly. Marsh even while under direct control by Ruin, still had a inkling of a fight in him, he just had to have a chance to make his move. Venli, when Ulim wasn’t around, showed that she realized something was wrong, that maybe she shouldn’t betray the listeners. These two were under terrible infulence to do the awful things they had done. Moash chose to be under that influence, and hasn’t regret it. The fact he tries so hard to break Kaladin, to prove a point, shows that he is still making a excuse to do awful things.
Also yeah, it was Kalak that was late, and Jerezirem had to tell him the decision. He also felt guilty about that, so his paranoia might actaully be deep guilt, just like Ash’s for leaving Taln behind. It does bring up a good observation, their insanity might be guilt.
Austin @@.-@ – We know that the Ghostbloods are trying to figure out how to get Investiture out of system, and we know Kelsier was trying to figure out how to get out of system. We know that the Fused/Heralds don’t know either of those things. (We also know that Vasher seems to know both…) It may be that they’re thinking that since the Heralds & Fused can get from one world to another, that information would help them? Or avoiding the madness? Or… I honestly don’t know what they expect to learn; I suspect that mostly they’re just hoping that they can learn a little here and a little there and put things together to figure it out. But that’s another secret we’ll have to wait for.
Roger @5 – Well, that’s a possibility I hadn’t really considered… Maybe? I’m not quite sure how Mraize & co would have come up with it, and I’d thought the Fused already had the Stormlight-stealing fabrials, but that proves nothing. We don’t know much about whether the Ghostbloods have artifabrians on the payroll, so I suppose it’s possible.
Andrew @9 – I’ll (reluctantly) admit that Mraize’s tactics have been very successful; that doesn’t make them ethical or appealing, and I still loath him for it! And yes, Shallan was shockingly successful at the things he set her to do, though many of them were things she wanted to do for herself or her friends anyway. That’s one of the reasons I think he’d discard her in a New York minute if she broke her Ideals and could no longer function as a Lightweaver – that aspect was critical to virtually everything she’s done for him so far.
As for the Heralds backstories… I think there’s a good chance we’ll learn more about the early days in some of the later books, but I don’t know whether Sanderson is planning to give us that or not. It’s possible that the prologue scenario will be something about the Oathpact, but I’m not banking on it. It could well be something that happens after the contest of champions.
Carl @10 – I’ll agree that Moash is fatally weak, but I disagree that he only does terrible things under Odium’s direct influence. To me, it looks like he made a ton of selfish decisions all on his own, including betraying Kaladin & Bridge Four, that made him of interest to Odium. “Oh, look, here’s an absolute tool I can use against the strongest of my enemies.” No matter what good opportunities are given him, he’ll always stab someone in the back if it fits his personal self-pitying narrative.
Taravangian… I’m waiting for the next book to see what I think of that whole thing.
As for Kalak, yes, he was the POV in the prelude – and IMO he showed pretty weak there, though the others had all agreed to abandon Taln to the Fused on Braize before Kalak got there, so… I don’t know where that puts him. Jezrien at least looked strong(ish) – or decisive, if not strong. Kalak seemed both weak and indecisive.
Steven @11 – Yep. All that.
Also, good point about their insanity perhaps being related to their guilt. Or at least some of it. On the other hand, the Fused are increasingly insane too, though, and the ones who seem to feel the least guilty are starting to look pretty sketchy. Raboniel, who seems to feel no guilt whatsoever over her efforts to exterminate humanity, flat-out tells Navani that if she were to die and return again, she would be irretrievably insane. Lezian is certifiable, IMO, and he certainly doesn’t seem to have a guilty conscience – he’s just salty about being the first one killed. Leshwi, who appears to feel the most regret about the decisions they made 7000 years ago, is the most sane of any we’ve seen. But there’s guilt and guilt, and it may be that the Oathpact binding the Heralds gives their sense of guilt an added dimension.
Late to the party, as always, but I really have to get off my chest how badly Shallan’s mission was organized by Mraize, IMHO, his expert manipulation of her notwithstanding.
First of all, what made him think that trapping Kalak in a gem would let them transport him to Thaidakar? I mean, I suppose that Axindweth had been working for Ghostbloods when she brought Ulim to Roshar, but that was within the same system. Also, if the problem of transporting cognitive shadows off their worlds had been solved, Thaidakar would no longer be trapped and wouldn’t need Kalak to figure out how to leave. I also can’t imagine that the problem of insanity would be acute or immediate for him in any case, given that he is pretty “young” as such things go.
But most importantly – let’s say that Shallan agreed to kill and impersonate Kalak – and doing so didn’t break her bond, which it well could have. What then? Wouldn’t she have been stuck with limited stormlight where letting go off her disguise even for a moment would have caused her discovery? Not to mention Shallan’s own disappearance from a locked fortress provoking hue and cry. Or the eventual discovery of the body – IIRC Jezrien’s didn’t disappear on his death. How was she supposed to get the gem to Thaidakar?! Not to mention that if she slipped, it would result in a huge win for Odium, and while Ghostbloods are ruthless, given their leaders’s likely goals, I don’t see how they would want him free and able to cause havoc in the Cosmere at large. To me it looks like Mraize threw a lot of valuable, maybe even irreplacable resources at this mission, but didn’t bother with much planning. I used to think that Felt was a Ghostblood agent in Adolin’s and Shallan’s retinue and that he was supposed to take the gem off her hands and/or run interference, but WoBs refute this notion, IIRC.
Speaking of the Heralds – they were always human, with human failings. Heroic, yes, hopefully, but flawed. I’d also very much like to see their greatness, particularly something from the women, as we have got nothing from them, whereas there were quite a few glimpses from the men, not to mention Taln being the literal saviour of his world for 4.5 millenia.
RogerPavelle @5:
But if Mraize supplied the Fused with the dagger in the first place, wouldn’t he have known that Jezrien died? BTW, I don’t think that it makes for a good story to deny the Fused any creativity. Also, didn’t Raboniel use the same dagger in her experiments and didn’t it contain raysium? IMHO, it makes more sense for Odium’s servants to come up with something using his god-metal than for outsiders. Also, my impression is that Mraize wanted Kalak specifically and not any odd Herald, since he didn’t try to trap Shalash when he had the chance. BTW, I think that we have a somewhat distorted view of Mraize’s importance, because he is on-screen so much. He isn’t even a top Ghostblood on Roshar, is he?
AndrewHB @10:
I don’t believe for a hot second that Mraize couldn’t have snuffed Ialai at any time. We have seen him impersonate her bodyguard, after all. This mission was just a means to draw Shallan in more, after she refused to trap Sja-Anat for him.
Carl @10:
Marsh was a capital-word hero, who was being posessed against his will and has given his all to resist, which proved crucial for the salvation of his world. I don’t get your comparison to Moash at all. Venli comparison is closer, but she didn’t really know what she was getting into. Moash, however, does. He was also shown the alternative and deliberately turned his back on it.
Wetlandernw @12:
The Ghostbloods already know how to move some investiture around – the Seons. Also, they presumably thought that they could move Kalak-in-a-gem around. As to Vasher, I suspect that his method may not be directly applicable to non-Returned. It seems that the type of investiture involved really affects the difficulty of transporting it. OTOH, it sure seems to me that the Fused are the type of cognitive shadows much more similar to Kelsier than the Heralds and that it would be much more logical to experiment on them. So, presumably they want Kalak specifically for some reason.
Concerning the Fused insanity, there is a big mystery about why ROdium kept the insane ones around, instead of “withholding that which gives them persistent life”, as he threatened the stroppy one towards the end of Oathbringer and creating more from useful people. Clearly he had the ability the whole time. Also, do we know that Raboniel was truthful when she claimed that she would return insane or did she just jump at an opportunity to end it all, having finally released her poor daughter? She also may have been concerned about Odium’s punishment for her betrayal, etc. IIRC books mentioned somewhere that posessing the bodies of other people does additional damage to them. It would also seem that the Fused returned more often than the Heralds, who were limited to once per Desolation, no? So, both groups were under somewhat different stresses, which led to similar outcomes, IMHO.
@13 You bring up a good point that Mraize isn’t the head honcho ghostblood on Roshar. He even called Iyatil his master. Thinking about it, I think this whole Roshar expedition might actaully be a test for him. See if he can successfully accomplish whatever they are planning. Like Pattern says, his truths has lies in them, he’s using them to fully chain Shallan into the ghostbloods. We just think he’s more important because he does have so much screentime, and that he seems to be in charge.
Steven Hedge @14:
I think that Ghostblood operation on Roshar is far too important to their goals to be a test for any one member. OTOH, Mraize may be angling for promotion, which would explain some of his risky and not entirely thought-through moves, IMHO. After all, Iatyl can’t really blend in because of her mask, even using whatever Connection tricks they have available, so Mraize is playing the “face” for her anyway, so he may think that he deserves her position and is trying to prove himself.
I don’t think that he has been as smooth in his manipulations of Shallan as all that, however. He did think that Veil was her true self and also that Veil would be on board with all the murdering, which was a severe misjudgement. Though I have an impression that Shallan had some kind of contact with Ghostbloods as a child and that Mraize’s beliefs about her were due to that. Ditto that Veil’s alleged rogue experience wasn’t as completely invented as it seemed.
BTW, I am really curious what Iatyl’s story is that she who was, according to WoB born and raised off Scadrial, chose to follow one of it’s most restrictive traditions. Equally intriguing is how such a significant limitation didn’t prevent her from becoming a high-level Ghostblood agent. Personally, the only way I can make any sense of it is if she had already been fairly high in the organization when she suffered a disfiguring injury and chose to go back to her roots to conceal it.
I also wanted to point out that Shallan’s interactions with Mraize aren’t particularly indicative of how she would have reacted to Kelsier, because their approaches to drawing somebody in are really different in practice. Kelsier always visibly cared or at least gave an impression that he did. Nor did he threaten as casually. So, I think it likely that Shallan would have got on swimmingly with him if she hadn’t already been burned by Mraize. Provided that Kel could overlook her being a noble, that is. After all, her desire to learn all the secrets aligns really well with where Kelsier was at the end of “Secret History”.
I think you have the dagger backwards. The fused don’t invent things. I suspect they got theirs from the ghostbloods
@Freddy, what makes you think the Fused don’t invent things? Raboniel’s whole character is based on being inventive.
Enders Wiggins moves towards Honor Harrington in scale. Hope we can get some better movies before I’m old. I’m just doing my best. 2+2=4body 1+1=1