Well, how about that. It’s Tuesday again! We’ve all read Chapter Ten, right? (If not, what are you doing here? Go read it first!) Last week, Navani got the beginning of a new arc, with her mysterious correspondent. This week, Kaladin gets the end of an arc, and … well, honestly, kind of a blank slate on what comes next. Let’s go talk about it, shall we?
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now—if you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In the new normal, we have some Mistborn Magic comparison in the Fabrial Technology section, so if you haven’t read it and don’t want spoilers, best to give that section a pass.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin
WHERE: Narak (Shattered Plains)
WHEN: Day One, cont.
Kaladin and the others arrive back at the Shattered Plains, and Dalinar relieves Kaladin of duty.
Overall Reactions
No, Syl said. He is angry at your repeated suggestion he bond one of the enemies.
“He won’t find a potential Windrunner more capable or earnest.”
L: I appreciate that Kal is looking out for Rlain, but… trying to coerce a spren into a bond without it being their own idea? I don’t know. I’ll be interested to see what Rlain’s take on that will be. He’s seemed to be a very independent type, I don’t know how he will take this potential pity-bond.
A: Yeah, it’s… troubling. We all want Rlain to get his spren bond, but this is … I don’t know how I feel about it. Ambivalent. It might be a great bond, and Yunfah just needs to give it a chance to find out how great it can be. Or it might be worse than useless; if they really try and can’t form a bond, what would that do to Rlain? I do see why Kaladin wants to try it, though; Yunfah is the only available honorspren, and from all appearances there won’t be any others without someone dying. So… okay. Sorta. I guess.
(Except, somehow a spren that chooses the form of a grumpy old man just doesn’t seem right for Rlain! LOL)
“I forbid you to bond anyone else unless you try to work with Rlain first.”
L: At least he’s not flat out ordering Yunfah to bond with Rlain, but… still problematic.
A: Yep. I suspect Kaladin knows he can’t actually force a bond, and is smart enough not to push it that far. Nonetheless, it feels off.
“What happened to Brightness Ialai is regrettable,” Dalinar said. “See that her decision to take her own life is published.
L: Wait a second. Dalinar, lying outright like this? Or… is he being given false information?
A: Umm… yikes? I mean, I get that Shallan and Adolin don’t want to tell the world that Ialai Sadeas was murdered during their mission, by one of their own people… Maybe they figured Dalinar would read the report out loud and didn’t want to put the truth in it?
“It’s time that I relieved you of duty, son. I’m sorry.”
A: OUCH.
L: Honestly, I’m… glad that Dalinar is doing this. Kaladin needs time to heal, and Honor knows he’s never going to voluntarily sit back and do it himself. However…
“You can’t do this. I built the Windrunners. They’re my team. You can’t take that from me.”
L: Ye gods. If this is the only thing keeping him together… what’s going to happen when he loses it?
A: This chapter… so many mixed feelings! Kaladin’s immediate reaction is that the lighteyes are once again taking away everything that matters. And yet, he knows it’s the right thing to do, too. Overall, I agree that Dalinar is doing the right thing here, but it’s so painful. Doesn’t matter that he’s now a lighteyes too, or that he’s a Knight Radiant—that sense of loss is deep.
Humans
The battalionlord, a gruff fellow with an Oldblood tattoo, looked away pointedly.
L: I just want to point out that I have no clue what this Oldblood thing is.
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
A: Heh. We know very, very little; I think it’s just a worldbuilding detail. The Oldbloods used to be rulers of Alethkar in some distant past, and they wear a blue tattoo on their cheek to show their heritage. Teleb, the archer from Dalinar’s first flashback, was an Oldblood. And… that’s about all we know.
Though Dalinar had never said he’d moved to written reports specifically to make his officers confront the idea of a man reading, Kaladin could see the showmanship in the way he held up the sheet and nodded to himself as he read.
A: Can we just share a chuckle over Dalinar striking a pose to pointedly read the report in front of his officer? He’s just determined to spread this bit of rebellion, isn’t he? Also, it seems like we should address this:
Dalinar was a king now, officially recognized by the coalition of monarchs as ruler of Urithiru—a station separate from Jasnah’s queenship over Alethkar. In the acknowledgment of this, Dalinar had officially renounced any idea of being a “highking” over any other monarch.
A: So there’s the formal answer to a recent question: Urithiru is Dalinar’s “kingdom” now. I wonder if Jasnah will set up an Alethkar-in-exile settlement at the warcamps, now that there’s a leadership vacuum there.
Relationships & Romances
“I can’t believe this!” Kaladin said, angerspren pooling underneath him. “You were supposed to be different. You—”
“Why?” Dalinar asked, standing calmly.
L: I love this. Kaladin’s losing his temper and Dalinar just completely throws him off the tracks before he can start gaining momentum. Dalinar is acting like the tough but loving father to Kaladin here, and I’m here for it.
A: Totally infuriating! Except that of course it’s exactly the right response. Dalinar has seen this situation before, probably hundreds of times, and he knows what needs to be done. Further, he knows Kaladin, and what Kaladin needs to have done. That whole bit about how Dalinar is supposed to be better, because he cares about his men… It’s really quite perfect, as sad as it is, because every one of Kaladin’s arguments bring him back around to acknowledging that Dalinar is correct, and that it’s what he himself would do for someone under his command.
“You’re not valuable to me because of how many enemies you can kill. It’s because you’re man enough to understand, and to say words like those.”
L: Dalinar making a strong play for MVP at this particular moment…
Bruised & Broken
Others, however, handled it differently. The majority, though grieved, seemed to want another bond soon—as it helped them move past the pain of loss.
L: This reminds me a little of how some people will get a new pet to help ease the pain of the loss of another. It… kind of amuses me a little to think that maybe spren see humans as their pets. It would make sense, though, if you think about it… they are far more long-lived than humans, just as we are compared to dogs or cats…
Perhaps the two Heralds could explain the pillar. Had they walked here? Unfortunately—considering that one of them was full-on delusional and the other dabbled in it now and then—he wasn’t certain they’d be useful in this.
A: I love the phrasing here, but at the same time, it’s a bit painful. I keep hoping they’ll learn something useful from Taln and Ash; they should know so many things that would help! But they don’t seem to be contributing a lot, so far.
L: Might just be a case of needing to know the right questions to ask…
“What if I’m not there?” he pled. One final complaint. “What if something happens when they’re out fighting? What if one of them dies because I couldn’t protect them?”
L: This breaks my heart.
A: Dalinar’s response, though… what if one of them dies because you are there and you freeze right when they need you? Honestly, I think that would be the worst thing that could happen to Kaladin at this point. The pain of knowing someone died because he wasn’t there would be awful. Knowing someone died because he was there and he froze right when they needed him… that would be so much more guilt piled on his already overburdened sense of responsibility! I’m glad Dalinar is pulling him out before that happens.
L: I agree, but I can also see how Kaladin couldn’t see that in the moment. It’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t, situation. People could die either way, and in Kal’s mind, that responsibility is on him either way.
A: That’s very true; his mindset at present is “I’m responsible for everyone, no matter what.” Which… Kaladin, just no, but I get it. *sigh*
“I just won’t be anywhere I can cause harm,” Kaladin whispered. “Because I’m broken.”
L: KALADIN. AW JEEZ, HE’S KILLING ME HERE.
A: Oh, child… (Yes, I know he’s 21. He’s still a child, right now. And he badly needs a hug.)
L: There are so many times over the course of these books that I wish I could just reach into the book and give him a hug. Not that he’d take that well, that is… look at how annoyed he is by everyone checking in on him.
Sure. Of course. Take from me the one thing that matters, then tell me I’m valuable. We both know I’m nothing.
L: I’ve… I’ve had these thoughts, when depression is at its worst. I feel for Kaladin so much, here.
“So I’ll come back to the battle?” Kaladin asked. “I’ll take a leave, then return?”
“If we feel it’s right for you to do so. Yes, that’s possible.”
Possible, Kaladin thought. But not likely. Dalinar had probably seen more men succumb to battle fatigue than Kaladin had—but in all his years of fighting, Kaladin had never seen someone recover. It didn’t seem the kind of thing you got over.
A: Ow.
L: How often have you seen people heal from Shardblade wounds, though, Kaladin? Back before the Radiants returned? I’m just saying… maybe it’s not so impossible anymore. (Though I will say that I’d rather if this healing comes about because of work he puts in on his own emotional stability rather than just a supernatural fix.)
Weighty Words / The Knights Radiant
None had yet spoken the Fourth Ideal. He liked to think that it was as hard for them as it was for him, and none had yet cracked it. But… but could they be restraining themselves because of him? Out of some misguided respect?
A: This has come up in the discussions recently, so… here’s an answer. There are not yet any Fourth-level Windrunners, and—like the reader—Kaladin can’t help wondering if someone is holding back so he can be the first. Would they, really? I don’t know.
L: I could see that. They all look up to him so much, and they all obviously know how bad off he’s been lately. Imagine how much worse it could be if someone else took that step before he did? Even if it’s just subconscious, I could see people holding back because they’re trying to protect him. They are Windrunners, after all.
“I…” he whispered. What were the Words?
You couldn’t say the Words, he thought. You needed to. A year ago, when Dalinar could have died. You needed to speak the Words. You crumpled instead.
L: As has been theorized up, down, left, and right before now, they have to be something about accepting the inevitable, right?
A: It certainly seems probable. There have been a lot of fan theories about this Ideal, but most of them seem focused around accepting something he’s not willing to accept. That some people don’t want his help? That they get to make their own decisions? That he’s not responsible for every single person in the whole world? It seems likely to be something along those lines.
What We Missed (In the Timeskip)
The spren, Yunfah, had been bonded to Vratim, a Windrunner who had died a few months ago. At first, when they’d begun losing Radiants in battle, Kaladin had worried it would cause him to lose the spren as well. Syl, after all, had gone comatose many centuries ago when she’d lost her first Radiant.
A: Let’s take a moment to note that last week’s passing comment about “lost Windrunners” is reconfirmed and expanded. We have a named dead Windrunner here, Vratim, and the clear implication that there have been quite a few others. There have been enough, at least, for Kaladin to observe that the “usual” response of the spren is to seek another bond. (This note brought to you by a review of previous weeks’ comments, to point out that we did not, in fact, see the first Radiant deaths on screen. IMO, it would have been unrealistic to go for a whole year of near-constant fighting without losing a single Radiant.)
Also: There have been a few infrastructure changes in the past year. At Narak, for example,
Navani’s engineers were turning the entire plateau from ruins into a fortified base. A wall to the east—easily six feet wide at its foot—was being built, low and squat, against the storms. A thinner wall wrapped the rest of the plateau, and lightning rods helped protect from the Everstorm.
A: So that’s cool; they’ve fortified the Oathgate plateau and very clearly made it Human Territory.
L: I particularly like the lightning rods, I don’t recall ever having seen anything like that in Stormlight before!
A: Then there’s this reflection of Oathbringer…
That was one of the revelations that had shaken the foundation of the Radiants—both ancient and new. Though many of the orders had accepted the truth as an oddity and moved on, many Windrunners had not. Nor had Dalinar; Kaladin could see the way he winced whenever the idea was discussed.
L: Well, it’s good to know that the Big Revelation from the end of Oathbringer wasn’t just swept under the rug.
A: Indeed! Kaladin (and presumably the rest of the Windrunners) seem to be stuck on the concept that the humans were the “invaders” and still feel some associated guilt, while many of the other orders are okay to just leave the past in the past. I’m bothered a bit differently than Kaladin, though: I’ve firmly believed ever since the Big Revelation that there’s more to it, that we haven’t gotten the whole story of the “Voidbringers” arrival. I would be really upset if everyone just accepted it and went on about their day; this is a Mystery, and I want Answers.
L: Especially since the Radiants of old certainly didn’t just accept it. What makes it different this time?
A: Good question. My best guess would be that instead of feeling guilty about a vanquished enemy turned to mindless slaves (after the False Desolation and the entrapment of Ba-Ado-Mishram), they’re facing an organized army, with extremely powerful Fused and Regals, and their lives are in danger. They need all the Radiants they can get to keep humanity from being destroyed or enslaved, and pragmatism trumps idealism in that situation.
Fabrial Technology & Spheres
A tin cage will cause the fabrial to diminish nearby attributes. A painrial, for example, can numb pain.
A: This is the first metal that doesn’t have an obvious correlation—at least, not that I can see—to the Allomantic usage. Burning tin enhances the senses, where a tin cage diminishes the relevant attributes. It might be a little like flaring tin to clear one’s head, but… not really. Perhaps it’s more like the Feruchemical use of a tinmind for storing sensitivity? Maybe? Someone better at the Scadrian magic system needs to weigh in on this.
Note that advanced designs of cages can use both steel and iron as well, changing the fabrial’s polarity depending on which metals are pushed to touch the gemstone.
L: This makes sense with what we know of Allomancy, too. Steelpushing and Ironpulling!
We’ll be leaving the rest of the speculation to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others! And remember; please, no discussion about the sneak preview of Dawnshard! (ETA: Sneak previews remaining are a portion of a Venli chapter, two Interludes, and the prologue of Dawnshard. Please make sure you either avoid those, or white-text your comments about them if you feel they’re particularly relevant.)
Alice is done with the sunburn, sent the kid back to school, and is looking forward to the discussion. Also, Dawnshard.
Lyndsey is missing her faire family dearly. For the next two months in these bylines, she’ll be giving some shout-outs to fellow local performers who could really use the support. This week, check out The King’s Busketeers, fine purveyors of party folk music! If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
This chapter was too short. good, but too short.
It will be interesting to see what this pushes Kaladin to do. A (very small) part of me slightly hoped he would say the 4th right there and then.
Forget Dalinar, I can’t see Sanderson letting him languish too much…
I hope
I have to say, he needed this. I feel bad for Kal, but he WOULD eventually kill someone by freezing. I’m not saying it will be his fault, but he would think it is. If that happened, he would hate himself so much more than he does now, so this will help him. Also, Dawnshard sneak peak? I missed that, where can I find it?
I’m not sure if there will be another big revelation about the Recreance. Bearing in mind that at the time the rest of the Radiants found out, they’d be fighting and killing Listeners for a long, long time so to find out all that bloodshed was actually them slaughtering the native population and doing so had destroyed their home: would give you pause.
This crop of Radiants have known the end result of their powers from the start so potentially are being more cautious/holding themselves back.
the use of tin here does line up much better with Feruchemy than with Allomancy. This seems to track with the way Navanni stored pain and then released it back in Oathbringer, similar to how Sazed would store eyesight and then tap it for later use.
@2 – it was in a newsletter, a couple of weeks ago. Are you subscribed to Sanderson’s newsletter? It’s worth it, for sure, if you’re a fan.
Dalinar finally noticed Kaladin’s pain. About Storming Time. After brushing it off, to disastrous effects, in Words of Radiance, I’ve been waiting for him to notice. I understand this not being addressed in Oathbringer because, in Urithiru, Dalinar had other problems and Kal was relatively happy. I know this is hard for Kaladin, but I’m just glad we didn’t have to see him freeze in battle, have some one die, and then Dalinar notice. That’s where I feared this was going.
I don’t think that it’s bad that Kaladin is forcing Yunfah to consider Rlain. This is kind of a glass ceiling situation. And once the other Parsh learn that it is possible to become a Knights Radiant, maybe more will lean that direction. Venli is obviously still hidden, so the normal ones wouldn’t know.
Also I’m glad that at least Dalinar and the Windrunners remember the past, even if there does turn out be something more, which I’m now leaning towards. There has to be some sort of impasse for reconciliation in the future and any acknowledgement of past wrongs will probably inspire that.
Mistborn metals comment:
Remember that pewter and tin are paired, with pewter being the “pushing” metal and tin being the “pulling” metal. It makes sense that they should affect the same thing in opposite ways, so the fabrial version almost makes more sense than the allomancy version.
@2 It’s in the latest newsletter. Subscribe and you’ll get the sneak peak of the prologue
Kaladin to the contrary, lots of people get over trauma. Depression-vision is not that clear, it would seem. (This is a revelation to no one.) Not that they go back to being the same person they were before the war (or whatever other events traumatized them), but it’s perfectly possible to regain function and have a happy life.
Moderator: you forgot to unlock the comments on Chapter 9.
I don’t see Kaladin ordering Yunfah to give Rlain a legitimate chance as troubling. He isn’t forcing him to bond, just making him get past his prejudices and see if the bond could work. As he points out, Yunfah hasn’t found anyone else and is just moping around and waiting to fade, something that Yunfah doesn’t actually want. Honestly, it kind of reminds me how Kaladin would sometimes act around Adolin or Elhokar and he occasionally needed to be called out by Dalinar or Skar and Drehy about it.
Oh wow! When I asked the question about windrunners saying the 4th ideal and if Kaladin was holding them back, I didn’t expect to get an answer in the very next chapter. I do think on a some level they are. I wish I could see this step back helping Kaladin, but I expect him to get worse before he gets better. Dalinar did need to do this though, for everyone’s sake, and he is in an ideal position to understand what it is like to be a solider with trauma.
It is interesting how Kaladin’s PTSD and depression mingle together to be the worst enemy of who is one of the most formidable fighting characters on honors side. I can definitely relate to that feeling of worthlessness when you are down on yourself, those words Brandon chose for him to think about himself are so spot on. Of course to anyone but Kaladin, it is complete crap, but it just is this vicious cycle that almost feels right even though it is painful. Very weird dichotomy. And then his PTSD… no wonder he is having a hard time.
So here on earth, they have come out with studies about taking mushrooms and other psychedelics helping one confront these things, curing soldiers of PTSD. I kinda wish that Brandon would have Kaladin meet with Cultivation and for her to help facilitate his healing like mushrooms do.
Also I don’t think it’s a mistake the parallel between:
1) Kaladin gives Yunfah 10 days to reconsider his perception of himself and who makes a suitable bond and
2) Dalinar gives Kaladin 10 days to reconsider where he is useful in the army and what he could do
Though I am also a little concerned that however it is phrased, the next ‘battle leader’ of the Windrunners might perceive Kaladin being moved due to sticking to the code of honour in the battle with the Heavenly Ones and that it could indeed be disastrous to wage all out war on them.
Good catch, @rach.
It occurs to me that Dalinar missed a chance here. He should have opened up to Kaladin about how he spent years semifunctional, and then more years as a near-useless drunk, after his own destruction by war. And then he recovered. (Is that in his autobiography? Has Kaladin read ithad it read to him?)
In a story so full of parallels, will Kaladin also visit the Nightwatcher to ask for help? It did end up working for Dalinar. (I doubt it, myself, but it would be interesting.)
L: Wait a second. Dalinar, lying outright like this? Or… is he being given false information?”
Well, they don’t know for certain she was murdered by someone in their own group, so it makes sense to present this as the most likely conclusion while they secretly investigate. We also don’t know how much information was included in the report Dalinar read.
I enjoyed them discovering lift
They’d started with two wings—which Navani had thought would make the vehicle fly better, but which had made it pull upward uncontrollably
This chapter absolutely wrecked me. I am a former Soldier with many of the same issues Kaladin has, and I have been through this. I have had to take a knee when I didn’t want to, and I have felt broken beyond words. When Dalinar confronted him I couldn’t stop bawling. I don’t know who Brandon talked to, but I did not expect to read something so personally accurate and resonant in any book.
Although I am not against the idea of changing main characters, i.e. Kaladin getting stuck at 3rd ideal and never moving up and us observing someone else’s ideal, stepping back from the fight might be exactly what Kaladin needs to move forward.
Two things to remember here. The unnamed windrunner’s recording in gemstone that “Am I not supposed to want to help people?”, and the bridge four member (I think it was Skar) that was able to become a squire when he accepted his position as a helper. Stepping back from front line fighting is likely to allow Kaladin to broaden his single minded view of “protecting” meant using his fighting skill and protecting everyone he can reach, and realize that he can protect through diplomacy or as a battleground strategist. It can also allow Kaladin to finally make peace with his limitations and advance.
Nale’s Nuts.
This chapter literally made me cry. I know that Kaladin’s removal from the battlefield is probably a good thing, but it is still so sad. I feel like Kaladin will end up being hurt by this before it will help, though. IMHO, Brandon will not just leave Kaladin to this new spot for the rest of the series. I can picture him making Kaladin coming out and being cool again, and speaking the Fourth Oath. Deus Ex Machina, but in a good way.
I am feeling depressed now.
@Moderator @Wetlandernw
Did you mean don’t discuss the interlude preview we had as well? Just checking before I comment.
Kaladin forcing the bond for Rlain reminds me of current day policies of forcing opportunities for minorities. You just have to break that ceiling first in order for the change to happen. So I have no problem with that scenario.
I was going to point out the allomancy explanation but someone already beat me to it.
Likewise, Dalinar is solid MVP here. As a Bondsmith should be. He did everything exactly right. Kaladin isn’t thinking clearly enough to believe him yet, but that’s something that will take time.
It sucks that this world’s mental health theories are so far behind ours, enough they don’t even have words for depression and ptsd, let alone the concept of therapy. It’s realistic, but it sucks.
It’s very important that Rlain at least give the bond a try, so it’s good that Kal presses the issue. It’s not just that he deserves it, though he does. Having a Parsh among the Windrunners and proving they can be Radiant will be a huge deal, both for any defectors from Odium and as a possibility for living in peace once the war is won.
Not only that, there are many Spren who won’t bond with humans anymore. But they might bond with Parsh… and that means they don’t have to take Odium’s side or keep out anymore.
Narratively, I think Kaladin being taken off combat duty is really important. Because, well, we’ve seen that. And now his pacifist father is here, who wants him to be a surgeon. That’s a side of Kaladin we’ve barely gotten to explore. So let’s put him in a role that’s uncomfortable and new but constructive and healing, see if that changes anything.
The situation with the Windrunners and Heavenly Ones is definitely making this WWI on Roshar, with flying aces. Blend of WWII with the promised arms race. Personally I’m hoping they manage to get them to turn, maybe even become Radiant: they’re just as disgusted with Odium as Kal is if Leshwi is anything to go by.
But that DOES bring us to Leshwi. They established an instant connection with her. How will they maintain that connection if Kal is off the front lines?
On the other hand, as Kal heals a bit from PTSD, he’ll come to realize all the fused have thousands of years of it. They’re not getting more insane from reincarnation, they’re getting more insane because trauma is cracking their souls.
The parallel between Kaladin’s talk to Yunfah and Dalinar’s talk to Kaladin that @14 brought up made me think that Kaladin is still just a child. I mean, Yunfah was described as an old man but he’ll listen to orders. Kaladin, throughout the entire series, has been pretty insubordinate and petty over some things. In the last few chapters, someone else brought up that Kaladin could turn evil with Moash. I mean, Moash basically tempted him and he couldn’t hear Syl anymore. I think Kaladin is mentally unstable and he’ll eventually collapse and fall over to Odium. That would be an exciting story. Stormblessed and everyone thinks so highly of him and then he moves over with his buddy and kills the Heralds together. Not sure. I hope I’m not overhyping the story.
I agree with y’all that Dalinar was right to pull Kaladin out, but the reasoning he initially gave was wrong, and put Kaladin on the defensive. It was also a little worrying. “So, Highmarshall, I hear your men aren’t killing every parshman they fight. WTF?”
Kaladin was right in saying that “playing by the rules” is benefiting Team Honor far more than it is Team Odium. Leaving one injured, but alive cripples them a lot more than killing them so they can be reborn in a healthy body. Even implying that these actions are harming the war effort put the idea in Kaladin’s head that his removal was a form of damage control, and he latched onto it, when the real reason was that if Kaladin had a dictionary, the entry for “shell-shock” (“shard-shock”?) would just be a mirror.
Rlain! I hope we see the honorspren bond with him, and learn to see Parshendi as something more than just “the enemy”. And bless Kaladin for trying to make this happen.
I see the order to consider Rlain for Nahel bonding being similar to desegregation of the U.S. Army in the late 1940s and 1950s. The Nahel bond is even closer than fighting alongside one another, so I understand why Kaladin only orders the spren to consider it rather than ordering him to do it. It still ends up being the right thing to do.
I wonder if it will play a role in Kaladin swearing the Fourth Ideal or otherwise healing from this trauma. It’s effectively the last act that he took as combat leader of the Windrunners, and that’s the sort of thing which can carry narrative significance.
By the way, my vote for the Fourth Ideal: “I will let others risk themselves to do what is right.” I guess that could be seen as acceptance, but not of the inevitable. It’s accepting that other people, even those you want to protect, deserve to make the same choices that you are making.
Just like to say nice to read confirmation about what I have been saying for a while now. Just because you may be in an order that has martial powers, or tends to fight, does not mean you have to fight or kill in order to hold your oaths or advance. You can be a pacifist and be a dustbringer for instance.
I loved reading Dalinar mention the God Beyond! This is specially appropriate considering that Dalinar doesn’t think of Honor as the God now, just a god. I might be wrong, but I think this is the first time we are seeing God Beyond mentioned in SA, earlier is was probably in Mistborn or Sixth of the Dusk.
Tin behaving feruchemically kinda blows my ‘Stormlight causes Allomantic expressions, Voidlight Feruchemic/Hemalurgic’ theory from last week out of the water. I still think the Radiant suppression fabrial is likely Duralumin, but what causes one fabrial to use the metal like one of the metallic arts or another seems to not be the form of Light powering it. Possibly related to other aspects of fabrial construction we’ve seen discussed, the insertion of the wires of the cage into the gem? Guess we just need more information.
Re: Recreance.
I had always assumed that the revelation that caused the Recreance was twofold.
1) We are the invaders. We brought with us powers unknown to this world, co-opted its native Power for our own uses, and are the actual “Voidbringers.” This would of course bring about some guilt for the actions of their ancestors, and probably some would want to step away based on this, but that’s more of an emotional “do it in the heat of the moment” type of thing, and doesn’t really fit what we actually saw in the vision.
2) We used powers like these to utterly devastate the world from which we came. This seems to me to be a much more “logical” reason for the Recreance. The knowledge that you yourself are actively participating in actions that are likely to cause the destruction of a world is the kind of thing that can cause meetings, plans, and resolutions.
From the first revelation, I can see some Radiants throwing down their blades in shame. For the second, I can see a resolution on the part of all of the orders of Radiants to knowingly give up their power in hopes that it would not doom this world like it did the last one. Much has been made of the revelation of the true identity of the voidbringers, and that part is easy to focus on, but I don’t think that’s enough. A decision to de-power themselves for the good of the world makes much more sense as to why they abandoned Urithiru, their spren, and their Honor. It was a sacrifice, not out of guilt, but out of hope that they could perpetuate a tragedy to prevent a disaster.
-Beren
I really hope Rlain and Yunfah hit it off. I’d love for Rlain, while flying over the Shattered Plains, to find the group of Listeners that escaped to the chasms in WOR. Perhaps some of them could even become Windrunner squires!
My guess is hat Kaladin ends up as an assistant to the Herdazian General.(the mink?)
He is a sharp general, but really needs someone who can tell him the strengths and abilities of the wind runners (as well as the other radiants). Plus, Kaladin really needs someone who is both honorable and very practical. He could be a good mentor to teach Kaladin how to let others risk their lives.
Dadinar for the win. I’m just glad we didn’t have to see a breaking point on screen.
do surgeons have much to do, at this point? I wonder how useful Lirin will feel once he see’s an Edgedancer in action. Maybe Kal and Lirin will bond a little over feeling as if they’ve been made redundant.
In this chapter: Everyone who’s been complaining about Kal fight scenes for the past 9 weeks rejoicing
A couple of thoughts here.
i like that kaladin ordered the spren to consider bonding with Rlain. And the duality of kaladins order mirroring dalinars
I like that kaladin is starting to gain some insight that he can be a whiny bitch and got pulled up short by dalinar.
I think that kaladin fourth oath will be along the lines of him protecting or caring about himself.
I’m still not buying the whole odium/honor/recreance storyline. It smacks of being trumped up and being a lie…. it’s just not right, and I don’t know how to explain my feelings on that.
im wondering if you can make a fabrial that reduces pain, you should be able to make one that increases pain. If the kr carried it around and used it during battles might get nasty real quick
This chapter makes me optimistic about the Hearthstonians’ survival chances – no huge disaster is needed for Kaladin to hit the rock bottom and finally achieve the insights needed to reach the Fourth Ideal. Renarin staying with the Fourth Bridge is also a good sign. Maybe even Lirin won’t need to be sacrificed.
Also, I hope that somebody thinks about Kaladin training the other Radiants, Shardbearers and normal soldiers to fight against gravitation- using foes. The Windrunners can’t be everywhere and it would be naive to count on the fragile understanding with the Heavenly Ones to protect the groundlings in their absence. Not to mention from the Skybreakers…
I am kinda surprised to read that nothing has changed about Rlain’s situation – Sanderson previously said that Rlain had been absent after the certain point in OB for a reason and I was excited to learn what it was. We’ll see how it goes – I’d prefer if he he became a Bondsmith. But I guess that now we know how Nale was able to recruit some people with nascent Nahel bonds into the Skybreakers and have highspren bond them instead of whatever spren first showed interest. I don’t have any issue with Kaladin’s interference – as he only demanded a honest try. I sure am relieved that the honorspren wasn’t waiting for Moash! Also, some Windrunners have died during the year, but betweenthe Fused and the Skybreakers, you’d think that Odium’s side would have enjoyed an overwhelming air superiority.
Speaking of Bondsmiths, it is going to be awkward when the other 2 show up, what with Dalinar being king. And it seems like Jasnah being “queen in exile” is mainly a fiction at this point, since Dalinar clearly rules the Alethi in Urithiru and on the Shattered Plains. I am intrigued about the news of Ialai’s suicide – I thought it likely, myself. But maybe Shallan is obfuscating or lying in her report. Dalinar is great in this chapter – and it is clear that his book hasn’t gone public yet.
Concerning the Oldbloods – there is a WoB that they used to rule Alethkar and that they are descendants of old Radiants.
Could the crystal formation on the cover represent the Urithiru column?
I liked this week’s chapters: my negative comment is it was too short. I wanted to read the next chapter too.
I don’t agree with the above commentaries implying Dalinar just noticed Kaladin’s issues. He states he has known for months, but because of Kaladin’s special status, he was reluctant to take him out. He also feared the whole order would collapse if he did sound he carried the hope Kaladin would get better on his own. Seeing it is not happening, seeing Kaladin is endangering their missions, seeing the Windrunners are not committed to the fighting, he had to take him out of active duty.
Kaladin’s reaction was perfectly understandable even if the wrong one: this isn’t against him, this is for him. He cannot fight. He cannot admit he cannot fight so Dalinar needed to step in and tell him. Hopefully, Kaladin can work it through but I will re-phrased my worries Sanderson has, this time, taken the character way too low for recovery to be possible. After all, not all Radiants reached the fouth ideal. Kaladin could be one of those.
On the side note, so, Dalinar is King of Urithiru. It made me wonder if he expects Adolin to succeed him on *that* throne… We have a WoB Dalinar is a die-hard monarchist, so he would look into the succession… I am really interested to read what pans out with this.
On Dalinar not sharing with Kaladin is darkest hours: He obviously is not ready to read his book and I doubt he would open up on this without Adolin/Renarin being there. So while potentially helpful to Kaladin, he cannot tell him what he hasn’t told his sons, yet.
Ah another side note, I hated Kaladin forcing the spren to bond Rlain. This is wrong. Plain wrong. You can’t force a spren to pick someone you like better. I disagree with him attempting to do so.
I think that this chapter was a pretty natural progression of what was going on in Kaladin’s arc, and that this break is necessary for Kaladin to hopefully recover; however, one thing from this chapter really really bugs me… and that is the fact that Dalinar had the power to do something like this. I understand that he is the bondsmith and King of Urithiru… but he shouldn’t have the final say in the COMMAND STRUCTURE of a different order – I agree, he could have brought up the suggestion or asked Kaladin about it. But the way this seems is that Dalinar is commanding the head of a different order of Knights Radiant to give up their position as the LEADER of that order. I just don’t think that Dalinar should have that power and I don’t think that this is a good model for the new Radiants to follow. EACH order should have their command structure (if they desire one) and EACH order should decide on how to deal with said command structure and their own members. It makes sense for Dalinar to be the overall leader of the Radiants, but he should be the lead them not control them. This was a good way for the story to turn; I just hate how Brandon decided to do it.
I can see the Kaladin’s story going 3 different ways at this point:
1) He fades away from the story and relinquishes his role as a main character (after trying to break his depression, he fails). This would actually show that the main cast is changing and break the plot protection that the main cast has without killing one off.
2) He goes to Shadesmar and talks to the honor spren trying to convince them to start bonding more Radiants, where he learns more about his oaths and eventually swears his 4th – I think this is the most likely thing that Kaladin will do.
3) He spends time with his father and the people of Hearthstone and… (I don’t really know what else)
RavenPrincess @21 – Sorry for the delayed response. Yes, please white-text any discussion of things yet to come in Rhythm of War, including the upcoming Interludes. (I think those are the only things outstanding from readings & stuff, right?)
ETA – Oh, duh, there are other things. As Lyn mentioned, there is a preview of the Dawnshard prologue out there. There is also a piece of a Venli chapter, and the two Interludes. Please white-text all discussion of any of those outstanding bits.
Well, Sanderson made it pretty clear from the previous chapters that this was going to happen. It makes perfect sense, and Kaladin, as a character, hasn’t grown at all since WOR. He’s had more feats and accomplishments, sure, but there has been no growth.
I suspect we’ll see some great interactions between Kaladin and his folks from hearthstone (including Lirin, Oroden and Laral, now that her bum of a husband is gone), and also with the other Radiants. I’m hoping his father will help him with recovering his healer’s spirit and reconciling his warrior aspect with the healer.
He’ll be back in action in the third act for sure. Predictions for 4th Ideal anyone? My money is on
“I’ll forgive myself for the one’s I cannot save”
Excellent chapter. This has been coming since WoR, at least, and maybe since WoK. The poor guy needs a break, and an adjustment on his perspective.
It also fits well into what I think the Fourth Ideal will be for Kal… something like:
“I will accept the protection offered by others and the limits of the protection that I can offer.”
Reading this chapter was the first time it seemed possible to me that Sanderson is not planning to have Kaladin say the 4th ideal. I still think he will, and it will be a crucial moment of triumph. Before reading this chapter, I thought the fact he didn’t say it in Oathbringer was almost purely messing with the readers who expected a new level of Radiance to save the day in each book. Now I think it was also largely about realistic depression, and that it’s not crazy to think Sanderson wants to emphasize that for Kaladin.
My theory of Kaladin’s arc in this book from here is now something like: he decides the best assignment for him is to go back to shadesmar to convince the honorspren to bond wind runners. It’s challenging, and emotionally beneficial for him, but also frustrating. When he comes back from shadesmar, it’s not immediately clear he succeeded entirely, but he thinks he got the ball rolling. Then in some order, he finds out two things – one is that very few of the holdout honorspren are going to come, and the other is that Teft and a few others have said the 4th ideal before him. Then something happens, probably involving his family and/or Moash and/or a singer/group of singers who matters to him and quite possibly with Renarin’s help. It releases him to say the 4th ideal in a way that makes us all so happy for him, but isn’t actually terribly relevant to the war. Oddly soon after that, and before anyone else gets there, he says the 5th ideal and discovers that he can at that point elevate windspren into honorspren (or possibly use his new power to convince the existing honorspren to help, but I like that less). He finds lots of willing windspren, helps them bond new windrunners, and then brings those windrunners to save the day.
@39 I agree, but another way to look at it is that since Dalinar is king of Urithiru, he technically has command of the armies there, and is still Kaladin’s commanding officer.
@42
I like that idea. A lot of us are so stuck on the ideal being related to Kaladin acknowledging that he can’t protect everyone, but now that you bring the idea up, Syl did drop a huge hint in that direction. Even the Windrunner gemstone in the OB interludes, read with the proper emphasis, supports this.
The gemstone is written out “…am I not supposed to want to save people?” We (and the audiobook reader) put emphasis on the word “want”, implying that the oath is the opposite (I should be willing to let others die, or something). But what if the emphasis should be on “I” and “people”, implying that the two words should be reversed (I should allow OTHERS to save ME).
Syl says, just before they escape Shadesmar “Maybe you don’t have to save anyone, Kaladin. Maybe it’s time for someone to save you.” As Alice and Lyndsey like to point out, Syl drops hints where and when she can to set Kaladin on the right path. Aaaaand Kaladin seems to like the whooshing noise they make as they fly right by him, given how often they do.
@@@@@ 38, Gepeto:
He’s not forcing him to bond. He’s forcing him to spend time with Rlain and consider him. It’s the equivalent of Kaladin spending time with Adolin and getting to know him or Renarin and Bridge Four.
@@@@@ 39, skybreaker301:
I don’t really get your argument. If there were multiple Bondsmiths you might have an argument, but there is only one and he’s bound to the only Splinter of Honor. Dalinar is also the leader of some of the first of their order, so naturally, the organisation would build under him. Maybe the setup changes once the other Bondsmiths are found, but for “here and now,” it makes sense.
Navani already used that in the battle at the end of Oathbringer:
On Kaladin:
Right decision to take him off the active roster even knowing how much of a gut punch it is. I definitely relate to that pain and know that it is sometimes necessary for your commanding officer to make a hard choice, especially when you must do so to an excellent soldier. See Ender and Petra. Only difference is Dalinar actually caught it before things went catastrophic (if Dalinar is MVP, Renarin is certainly 6th man).
@39
Of course Dalinar should have that authority as leader of the Radiance. These aren’t 10 different Princedoms, it’s supposed to be a unified force. Everyone should have someone to answer to and a method for removing underperfoming members. I don’t see Dalinar micromanaging here, he’s not trying to dictate every action in other orders. But he has a reasonable right to inquire about the strategy decisions of the most important unit in the war effort. I will say that it probably shouldn’t be left to him alone but that cannot be helped. The other Bondsmiths have not revealed themselves yet.
I think Kaladin is going to be a healer and start working with his father directly.
I can’t help feeling that Lirin is gonna be key in Kaladin’s potential path forwards. After all, Tiens death is at the core of Kaladin’s entire motives.
Somehow, Lirin has moved past Tien’s death and had these views that war so much with Kaladin. Lirin thinks all fighting is bad but he also doesn’t take sides. He thinks all life is valuable but he cuts losses to save the ones he can.
i think he and Kal are gonna have a reckoning. Kal will realize he has been unwilling to adapt his fathers ability to let some people die to save others – because it means letting Tien go to save himself. It means letting go of some of the people he swore to protect most strongly.
at the same time, I think Lirin will realize that at some point you have to take a stand. That Kals actions would stop suffering from happening, not just work to fix it.
I think they’re gonna have a big (hopefully positive) impact on each other.
Kaladin is going to attempt suicide, soon. That’s the only reason he smiled at Dalinar at the end of their conversation was so that Dalinar wouldn’t worry. Why wouldn’t he want Dalinar to worry about Kaladin? Kaladin felt free to share his deep concerns until that moment.
My thoughts, at least.
Initial Observations:
Relatively short chapter, but probably best that it stands on its own due to what happens with Kaladin. Poor Kaladin, but it definitely seems for the best. He is not well and could be a major liability in battle if things don’t go well.
Nice bit of filling in of certain miscellaneous details, like the unattached honorspren, Rlain’s spren-bonding status, Dalinar’s status, etc.
A nice reminder that Dalinar has been a leader of soldiers for decades, and has the appropriate experience and understanding to identify and reassign officers that are doing themselves (and their troops) more harm than good.
Also, it’s clear that the actions/behavior of Kaladin in the previous chapters were absolutely necessary in order for Dalinar’s actions in this chapter to seem appropriate, and not some plot contrivance. I think that there will likely be less Kaladin POVs for a while, while he learns to adjust to his new reality. Maybe this will lead to more views from the other main POV characters mentioned for this Part, like Venli and Lirin.
Freezing up and costing lives is pretty much what happened in Oathbringer when Elhokar died and Kaladin pretty much stopped functioning.
I’m glad Dalinar had the sense and the guts to pull Kaladin out before something worse than Moash happened. I want to say Kal’s being dumb about how he’s reacting to being put on medical leave but that’d be hypocritical. If he could get it, on an emotional level, he’d be halfway to not needing it.
I’m concerned that Dalinar seeing it just as battle fatigue will be a problem. We know that Kal has had depressive episodes even before joining the army. Granted, it was less severe and seemed to be seasonally based. Kal still needs to work on issues other than those caused by his wartime experiences.
@27:
Interesting thougths on Rlain. My own personal guess is that this isn’t likely to work (any more than Kaladin is just going to recover that same 10 days), in part just because Rlain doesn’t really strike me as a Windrunner. That said, given that it’s here, it seems very likely that Rlain will be a Radiant by the end of RoW (#Rlain4Truthwatcher1176).
I definitely agree with you as to Kaladin’s Fourth Ideal, for reasons that relate to my theories about Radiant Ideals generally – that the unique Ideals of different orders all fit the rough pattern of “basic idea, concrete realization, increased nuance / enactment, acceptance of flaws / acknowledgement of limits”. This makes me think that Kaladin’s Ideals are going to go “people make their own decisions” -> “I can’t protect everyone all the time” rather than the other way around. And for him to swear that Fourth Ideal, I think training new Radiants would be an ideal post, because it would force him to confront the idea that other people (inspired by him!) *will* put themselves in harm’s way and that this is something he needs to respect and, in a lot of cases, support.
Turning over to Dalinar, now, I think his last two Ideals are going to be something like “I will do better than my predecessors and make amends for their errors” and then finally “I will train my successor to be a better leader than myself”.
The first is more obvious – throughout Oathbringer and now with the Mink, Dalinar was and is repeatedly confronted about the terrible things the Alethi have done both recently and over the centuries. He also clearly (from this chapter) still has some processing to do in regards to humanity’s arrival on Roshar. Moreover, since all the way back in WoK (which I just finished rereading – the scene where he gets together with Navani has an interesting moment where he cuts her off before she says something negative about Gavilar) he’s been very reluctant to acknowledge the idea that Gavilar was anything other than a brilliant leader and ideal king. Given Navani’s prologue in this book and Shallan’s investigation of the Sons of Honor, I think it’s likely that we’re going to see Dalinar have to learn about what Gavilar himself was up to and confront the terrible things he did and set in motion, ultimately leading to a new Ideal by the end of the book.
The second has more to do with my analysis of the Radiants and how their Ideals work, alongside my understanding of Dalinar’s character arc as a whole. The idea of the last Ideal being related to some sort of acceptance of flaws comes from what we know about the 5th Ideal of the Skybreakers (the only order for whom we have a full picture of the progression). The Skybreakers rely on external sources to guide their idea of justice from the Third Ideal (concreteness) onward, yet the Fifth Ideal of the Skybreakers clearly requires that they internalize and personalize their notion of justice, essentially applying all of the lessons they have learned over the course of their prior progression in order to become able to (perhaps) judge the law itself. Another way of looking at this is to see it as an acknowledgement that ultimately, a Skybreaker’s idea of justice *must* come from within themselves, from their own core honor, and that the idea of drawing morality from outside sources is fundamentally flawed. Applying this to Bondsmiths, then, whose core ideas revolve around leadership, the ultimate limits of that leadership are inevitably going to be the Bondsmith’s own life or career – once they’re gone, the Bondsmith can’t possibly keep leading those who they have brought together. Dealing with this, then, requires that the Bondsmith prepare a successor to carry on after them, to lead their people through new situations and new problems that the Bondsmith themselves could never have anticipated. This also fits with an issue that has been swirling around Dalinar himself and the Kholins more broadly: that of succession. Elhokar was completely unprepared to be king, and wound up weak and ineffectual. Adolin has repeatedly (and I think rightly) refused to take over, either when Dalinar was considering abdication or after Elhokar’s death. Jasnah certainly has the ability to rule, but we know from Ialai’s conversation with Shallan that she is not fully accepted as Elhokar’s legitimate successor, in part because she is essentially a regent selected after Elhokar’s death. These problems surround Dalinar, and he’s going to have to confront them eventually. Even here in this chapter, there’s a bit of this: Dalinar was reluctant to pull Kaladin from the front lines because he was worried that the whole Order of Windrunners would collapse without Kaladin personally leading them. Ultimately Dalinar will have to deal with this idea of succession, and I expect it to be the culmination of his character arc. (This is also yet another reason why I doubt he will live to see the start of Stormlight 6 – Dalinar can’t retire for narrative reasons, but his arc can’t conclude without him successfully passing his power and responsibility to someone else, perhaps someone named Zuln.)
@29 – Yeah, I caught that too. Did Dalinar pick that up from Wit, the Stormfather, or from insights granted to him by his powers?
@36-There is actually a picture, I think it’s in Book 1 (maybe 2) from Navani’s notebook listing a “pain knife”. I think this is how she actually was able to develop the painrail.
@40-Thanks, I usually speak before I think and I’m trying not to do that this time
@all-The main reason I don’t have an issue with Kal forcing the bond is because he’s not actually FORCING it. He’s just asking the spren to CONSIDER bonding Rlain. It’s like when you try to get a kid to try something new but they’re picky-you see if maybe they are willing to try a small bite to see if they like it, but you don’t sit there and shove food down their throat.
That being said-We saw in the Syl Interlude that he decides to become a surgeon, I think that will help him get to the Fourth Oath, because he will start seeing WHY he chose to become a soldier in the first place. He needs to relearn that, I think.
I don’t understand what it’s saying about iron and steel. It almost seems to be saying the following:
“Pewter and Tin will make a fabrial that will always express an attribute or diminish it, but once constructed it cannot be changed. However you can use both iron and steel to create a fabrial which can be manipulated between either expression or suppression.”
Is that the impression anyone else got? Or am I just completely off the mark?
So I was thinking, since Kaladin can make squires, and squires don’t need spren to use stormlight, is it possible Rlain is already a squire and there is more to kaladin’s firm order?
I also predict that Rennarin learned to read in the time skip and will either teach kaladin to read or will read to him oathbringer(unpublished still) and that will lead into the 4th ideal.
@54 Gazeboist
In Oathbringer at the end Dalinar specifically states it is not a regency, and in the preview chapters we have been reading of Rhythm of War it is stated that Jasnah is Queen in fact, with Gavinor named as heir. Not a regent. There is a subtle but important difference between the two. Regency is where Jasnah only holds the position till Gavinor comes of age. Full Queenship however is Jasnah is the ruler period. Gavinor only becomes king when/if Jasnah either abdicates, or dies.
I keep seeing people predicting which of these characters will appear in Stormlight 6-10. I thought the time gap in between the sets of 5 was supposed to be huge and that there would be no way these characters would be in the second set of books. Is that not the case?
I think Kaladin forcing Yunfah to give Rlain a fair chance is an acceptable order that doesn’t overstep any bounds. I’m actually a little confused why people think otherwise. I’m assuming because they read it as Kaladin ordering Yunfah to bond Rlain, which would be bad but didn’t happen. Are people actually upset with the order to give Rlain a fair chance, or is there still a difference in reader interpretation here?
I foresee Kaladin spending a lot of time with Lirin in Parts 1&2 and that will hopefully get Kaladin to finally accept the “save the ones you can” mentality. Even if it has nothing to do with the 4th ideal, it’s something he needs to learn. I actually kind of hope it has nothing to do with the 4th ideal. I find it too neat and tidy that the Ideals keep fitting exactly into the character flaws as people overcome them.
Fourth Ideal: Seems clear to me that it is about letting go of those who are already dead, something Kaladin finds himself unable to do.
“A tin cage will cause the fabrial to diminish nearby attributes. A painrial, for example, can numb pain.
A: This is the first metal that doesn’t have an obvious correlation—at least, not that I can see—to the Allomantic usage. Burning tin enhances the senses, where a tin cage diminishes the relevant attributes.”
I think this is a case where it very clearly is similar to allomancy. Pain is a sense, and while Tineyes haven’t figured out how to enhance pain (or ignored it if they did) Rosharans didn’t figure out how to suppress their sight (or have found only limited uses for it if they did).
Just a basic thing where “attributes” probably does mean senses, but if you can only increase or only decrease them you might focus a lot more on very different ones!
@50
I agree that Kaladin is going to attempt suicide soon. One of the factors introduced and reinforced here repeatedly in the chapters so far was the shortage of Spren willing to bond people. I think that one of the motivators will be that he feels like he’s useless as a Windrunner if he’s not fighting. Since we know that most Spren are taking up a new bond quickly, he’ll justify suicide to himself as freeing Syl up to bond with someone more useful.
I doubt that Syl would be impressed by that logic.
@61 Matthew
Eh, I don’t know about that. Kaladin already attempted suicide at the honor chasm, and Syl brought him back from the brink. It was a rather beautiful scene. That coupled with his reaction to being taken away from the battlefield worried him about losing Syl, makes me think Kaladin would not voluntarily try to get rid of Syl. After he almost killed her, he seems rather protective of her.
@46 Key. I read it as a very forceful “suggestion”. He basically forbids Yunfah not to consider anyone else before he looks into Rlain. I did not like how it went down: Kaladin shouldn’t be the one to chose who gets to become a Windrunner. Bad precedent.
@55 Raven. My issue is it was a very strong suggestion and an ultimatum. Kaladin obviously wants Rlain to get bonded and since it hasn’t happened, he wants to force it. I don’t think it is up to him to decide who gets picked. I understand why he does it and I am not mad at him, but I don’t think it is up to him to make those decisions. I also think it is wrong of him to put an ultimatum on Yunfah, but I think this is a wrong the new Radiants don’t yet realize.
@59. Joe. Speaking for myself, I did not appreciate the ultimatum and the forbiddance to look into other candidates.
I agree with EvilMonkey: Dalinar should have the authority to demote Kaladin if he fee Kaladils Kaladin is no longer able to do his job. If not for Dalinar, Kaladin would still be fighting and potentially causing more harm than good as no other Windrunner would ever ask him to remove himself from the field.
On Kaladin going to Shadesmar… Kaladin is not leading the expedition to Shadesmar nor is he going. Adolin and Shallan will lead it and, if we follow the book structure, it will be just them two. Maybe with an escort and a bunch of more minor characters, but Kaladin is not directly involved in this arc. He is not the one to go talk with the Honorsprens. Dalinar will actually send Adolin to do so. My personal suspicions are Dalinar will do the same as Kaladin did here with Yunfah, he’ll ask Adolin to go bond himself a Honorspren. Just my guess based on nothing solid other than my impressions so far. My other guess, that mission will be a failure.
I had a strong feeling of dread while reading how Kaladin hid his actual feelings from Dalinar. This feels like a pre-suicide to me or perhaps leaving completely. He believes that he is nothing and not worth living any more. This is certainly his rock bottom but will he pull himself out. There was no indication of how Syl felt when Kaladin was hiding his real reaction.
For those wanting more of Dalinar; he came back with a bang. He really is the leader they need.
This chapter confirms something I’ve suspected for a while: Kaladin already knows the 4th Ideal, he just can’t bring himself to say the words. Like most people, I’ve got a few good theories about what those words are, but more generally I’m guessing it’s about making an exception to the first two Ideals.
In real world emergency first aid training, the first rule is always “take care of yourself first”. Don’t take on more than you can handle, don’t put yourself in danger to help other people . In both situations where Kaladin’s tried to swear the 4th Ideal, it’s been because he wanted to put himself into more danger. In order to earn his armor, he’s going to have to swear to himself that he won’t use it to take unnecessary risks.
I’m guessing most Knights Radiant work similarly. We know the Skybreakers do; they swear to follow the law, then swear to follow a person, then one specific mission, and then they turn around and recognize themselves as perfectly capable of deciding right from wrong according to higher principles. This is why the one epigram says that the Windrunners and Skybreakers are more alike than they realize.
@63 Gepeto-I really hope that bonding an Honorspren is in the cards for Adolin. I really want him to have a “unique” bond with Maya-something that figures out how to let the “dead” spren be at peace (white text Elantris) just like the Hoed from Elantris finally find peace, maybe not the exact same way though.
Im glad Kaladin is getting discharged from fighting for a bit, it seems he needs time to process his own thoughts and confront them.
My theory is that it his state of mind is still a culmination of all the baggage from the death of Elocar and all the other self deprecating thoughts he’s had about not being able to save everyone. Ever since WoK we’ve seen that Kaladin has fought with the fact that he can never seem to save everyone; and the 4th ideal is likely something about realizing he must let people go, or that he cant always save everyone.
So he is now coming to a crossroads where he cant advance as a Radiant, person or soldier until he overcomes this. I think he’s going to end up on another journey away from Urithiru. Maybe as an ambassador to Shadesmar to recruit more honor spren. Or he may even get help from Jashnah, as she is basically his opposite (mentally).
@63-Typo in my above comment, I meant to say I really hope that bonding an Honorspren is NOT in the cards for Adolin.
Recent WoB about Oldbloods:
Honor Soren who can’t find a radiant amongst the squires? One who is shaped like a grumpy old man me butts heads with kaladin?
I’m calling Lirin.
I’m so scared for Kaladin. I see so much of my depressed friends in him. Sanderson wouldn’t really give a main character a death by suicide would he? He seems very committed to his mental health realism, which mostly I thought was A Good Thing, because of awareness and all that, but now I just really want Kaladin to live, please.
If Rlain does bond with Yunfah and become a Radiant, could that possibly cause either Nale or the Heavenly Ones to reconsider which side they backed in this conflict ?
@68. Raven. I don’t think it is, but I think Dalinar might think it should be. Given Adolin will be the one to lead the expedition to Shadesmar (and not Kaladin or another Windrunner), I could see Dalinar trying to push for it. Seeing Kaladin, this week, wanting to push Yunfah to bond a specific candidate, I could see Dalinar wanting certain people to bond sprens. His focus is very much on the Windrunners, he seems not to value other Radiants as much, with the war effort. With Kaladin taken out of the battlefield, he will want another officer he can trust with relevant enough experience. I doubt he’ll think Teft is good enough at military tactics to be this replacement. He’ll want to put his son there. That’s my guess anyway.
The bottom line what I meant is I am speculating Adolin will be asked to bond a Honorspren, but I agree it is not in the cards for him. I personally expect the Shadesmar mission to fail because I believe Adolin/Shallan may not end up being the right individuals to make it succeeds. I think Kaladin would be a better choice, but Dalinar will not trust he is mentally OK enough to entrust him such a crucial mission.
Just my personal speculation. Let’s see how it holds up to the actual narrative! But I expect taking out Kaladin from the battlefield will be… problematic, not just for Kaladin.
It took us a few Chapters, but we know the unbonded spren. I will admit I did not think it was a spren who had previously been bonded to a Radiant but which Radiant died. Sometimes, the collective fandom (myself included) want to craft a more convoluted theory as to why something happens rather than a more direct, simplified answer. I guess that is part of the fun of the fandom.
Good for Kaladin that he wants Rlain to be bonded. Bad for Kaladin that he is ordering Yunfah to try to do something against Yunfah’s will. If Rlain finds out, I think he may not be happy. I think forcing Yunfah to even consider Rlani is the Radiant version of a shotgun marriage; and is destined to cause resentment among the spren and bonded Radiant. One step forward, one step backward Kaladin. Sometimes he is as thoughtless as he is stubborn.
Lightening rods. Another example that current Roshar is more advanced than the typical Middle Ages fantasy world. I wonder if by Book 10, we will see the Roshar equivalent of the beginning of the Industrial Age. Perhaps even a Stormlight centric gun powder rather than bows and arrows & swords.
If Dalinar is king of Urithiru and Jasnah is queen of Alethkar (to the extent it survives the Desolation), who controls the Shattered Plains? I thought that was Alethkar land (by right of conquest). At the time of conquest, Dalinar and the other armies won in the name of Elhokar, the rightful king of Alethkar. I would think the Shattered Plains (Narak and the war camps) would be Alethkar territory, not Urithiru territory. I want to know the back story on who has control of the Shattered Plains. For all of his wishes and beliefs he is not a tyrant, he is certainly acting like one – taking land and the like. A benevolent tyrant is still a tyrant.
Although this is a Kaladin PoV Chapter, there is just as much Dalinar as there is Kaladin. I hope those who think the book is so far a disappointment since there is no Dalinar PoV will at least acknowledge the importance of Dalinar in Chapter 10.
I do not think it is any coincidence that just as Kaladin ordered the spren Yunfah to consider bonding Kaladin, Dalinar grounded Kaladin from battle. I think that was a good decision by Dalinar. (I admit I do not like Kaladin, so in one way, it is easy for me to accept something bad happening to Kaladin.) He was putting himself and other Windrunners at risk by freezing in battle. As a commander (especially one one the front lines), he has to get over his issue of not being able to save all Windrunners. I think a good mission for Kaladin would be to work with Szeth and try to convince the Skybreakers to come back to Team Honor.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I think the 4th Oath will be as simple as accepting to care for the living.
It’s a lesson that soldiers need to learn in order to function on the battle field.
If I remember correctly, it was a lesson Perrin had to learn in Emond’s field in order to grow into his role as a leader. Rand had to learn it too at some point.
Grieving for the dead and lost one can be therapeutic but striking a balance and accepting that they are gone is how we can emerge and begin to function again.
@36 Navani’s painrial can cause pain. She used when she, Fen and her consort were attacked in Oathbringer. She said that she’d tested it on herself. I think it might be those iron or steel cages that switch the polarity that cause it to go from taking pain to causing it.
@18 Thank you for your service and sharing how this chapter impacted you! Life before death, Radiant!
The more I read, the more I’m convinced: those Kaladin fight scenes HAD to be there. Otherwise we wouldn’t be set up for what just happened.
As for his 4th ideal, I recently was reminded of a scene from WoK. Kaladin tries to help a girl who had fallen, I believe, and was severely injured. He does everything right, and she still dies. Lirin tells him he did everything he could, that nothing would have saved the girl, but Kaladin wasn’t accepting it. Lirin tells him (paraphrasing,) “You have to learn when to care.”
This is either his 4th or 5th ideal, or at least ties in to it.
Kaladin isn’t done. His story and that of Syl is too big a part of what is going on. He will find a way back, or at least to that 4th ideal.
And I have no problem with him ordering the Spren to at least consider Rlain. It was made clear to me in that scene that the Honor Spren respect a chain of command. The Spren was looking for instructions from Kaladin. It was that understanding that led Kaladin to give the order.
Major kudos to Dalinar for recognizing and responding to shellshock! (PTSD, in modern parlance, though I find the old term more evocative and less acronym-y.) I was very impressed with how he handled that.
I’m not sure how Kaladin dealt with that spren was a good idea. Yes, Rlain wants to bond…but probably to a spren that likes him, not one that has to be ordered into the position.
I really can’t see a suicide in store for Kal. Seems like a cheap end, and not the type that Brandon likes to write. Plus, he did the attempted chasm leap already.
One of the appreciable things that Brandon does is write about character growth, and death does not lead to any more growth, spoiler: unless you’re a certain Mistborn person…
Kal has to grow, and move beyond the unreal expectations he has of himself. He has to accept his pain, as Dalinar did in OB.
I liked this chapter overall. Not gonna rehash what a lot of others have already said. Good stuff by Dalinar, correct choice to move Kaladin, but hard for Kal. Gonna be hard for him to accept this new reality. I don´t know where I stand on the hints of another potential suicide attempt (not that I think he will go through with it, but that his mind and mental health issues may lead him to lean towards it). I saw some of the hints too I think…Hopefully his friends will recognize that he still needs them even though he is not out fighting with them. Rock, the resident Bridge Four therapist, should come in handy.
On the question of Yunfah and bonding – my initial reaction was that Kal´s order to give it a try was not very problematic – he was simply telling him to explore an option that he had categorically refused (based in prejudice). I see and can understand the POVs of others who think this is more problematic. I think, until further info is forthcoming, I am going to term this an action that is okay considered in isolation, but the greater context (i.e. what will Rlain think if he finds out? what about other spren, especially those who do not accept militaristic respect for chain of command, etc?) makes it more problematic (I agree with AndrewHB@74 on this). So I can easily see it falling somewhere between a ¨holy crap, I hadn´t considered that¨ mistake due to limited personal POV that will cause interpersonal conflict that Kaladin will learn from to ¨holy crap, I totally overstepped and worsened our relationship with the Spren at large¨ mistake that will make the embassy to the Spren mission much harder.
All of these thoughts bring up another issue though – potential issues of Nahel bonds with Singers based on Spren types/natures. Given what we see with Venli and Timbre (admittedly a small sample size), can it be assumed that for a Singer to bond with Radiant spren that spren must be confined (trapped?) within their gemheart? (how do they interact with the world at that point? do they only perceive things through the sense of their “vessel” for lack of a better word?) I would think this is fair assumption at this point. The follow up issues will be – how acceptable would this be to all the other Radiant spren? Apparently Timbre thought this was an okay arrangement (I don’t think we can assume or generalize that all of the other Lightspren would necessarily accept this). But will an Honorspren? I come to this thought based on the Honorspren and their relationship with Windspren, as well as Syl and the tendency for Windspren and Honorspren to be described in ways that make me think they would have real problems being confined (and then there are Kaladin’s issues with confinement). It is stated that Yunfah really wants to be in the Physical realm, and I presume that has something to do with his nature being such that he likes to move and experience things there. Being confined in a gemheart seems like something an honorspren would have issues with. Thus, will Yunfah reject Rlain out of hand because the necessary bond would function very differently than that with a human? What impact will this have on Rlain and his relationship to Bridge Four? What impact on Kaladin after he “fails” at his last attempt at leadership before being moved? I would have to think that it would have a negative impact on all of them.
Thinking more broadly, would this type of thinking mean that while yes, it is conceivable that all Radiant spren could form bonds with Singers, will we see that in reality only a fraction of them (either collectively or individually) would be able to stand/flourish in such an arrangement? Are there certain spren that would generally seem to fit better? Probably not something that we can know for certain at the moment, but there is always speculation…
@AndrewHB
I think Kaladin pushing the spren to give Rlain a chance is the right move and the right way of thinking. First he was making an informed decision. It’s not like he’s going off half-cocked here, he asks Syl for her opinion and has his strategy endorsed by her, an informed party. Second, having Listeners on team Honor is essential to winning the new Desolation and this would be an excellent opportunity. Third, it’s in Yunwah’s best interest if he wants to keep from fading back into the CR. Rlain may not be the only candidate due for ascension but he’s likely the best. Lastly, Honorspren seem to align themselves more like soldiers than any other Radiant spren. And any soldier knows you will get orders that counter your wishes. At this point it is a shut up and soldier situation. It isn’t an unlawful order, the only force involved is forcing him to open up to the possibility of compatibility. Kaladin has often been thoughtless when dealing with soldiers under his command. Lyn and Drehy are examples that immediately come to mind. But this isn’t one of those times.
Monkey beat me to it. Syl was right there advising Kal on what was needed for Yun to overcome his prejudice because Yun isn’t thinking clearly. He hasn’t been bonded long enough to consider the issue from an integrated perspective. Syl has a greater “maturity” based on the length of her bond and maybe the Oath level as well.
The parallel link with what Dalinar did with Kal was highlighted with the authorial choice to use the same number of days (10). That was the only link I felt was a little heavy handed. Aside from that it was the best chapter of the book so far
This chapter hurt.
The taking away of what Kaladin views as the last good thing in his life, the thing he devoted himself to and rendering him ‘nothing’ on the heels of Moash trying to convince him to end his existence is a worrying combination.
I dont understand why the 4th Ideal would be to save himself. The first oath says “Life before Death” – which automatically includes he shouldn’t contemplate suicide or protect himself. In WoK, he steps away from the Chasm with Life before Death being the major takeaway.
I feel the first part of the books tend to be a glum Kaladin – WoK (slave & Tien), WoR (Prisoned, loses Syl), OB (imprisoned by parshendi)…but he’ll recover and (to quote Lift) be awesome. Leshwi / Rlain or Lirin / Laral will have a major connection to get him there.
Not totally on topic for this post, but I’ve been wondering: does anyone have a preferred Cosmere reading order? I was thinking I’d do a reread before the launch since I’ve forgotten a lot of it (this is possible; I read fast). I almost always read in publication order, for several reasons, but given how tightly Brandon has held to his plan, I was wondering if maybe it’d be better to read by world (with the other short works as a palate cleanser in between). Thoughts
@85. arianrose
https://www.brandonsanderson.com/where-do-i-start/
@El Cochino
Yeah, I’d seen that one, but I’m not a new reader. I’ve read all of it so far except for the White Sands graphic novels. I was more wondering if grouping my reading by the worlds they’re set in would make more sense than strictly publication order, particularly something like Elantris. (I don’t think the Mistborn “ages” matter quite so much.)
I suppose if I’m reading them so close together anyway it won’t much matter
@87 arianrose
Yeah sorry. I reread your post after responding and realized I’d misread it the first time.
So, I actually did re-read pretty much every Sanderson work this summer. I don’t remember the exact order, but of course you want to read Mistborn Era 1 prior to the Wax and Wayne series. The other stuff, not sure it really matters. They aren’t interconnected enough yet for it to really matter, IMO. Just start with a world and read what you can from it.
It was fun to find all the Wit/Hoid appearances that I didn’t catch the first time. Also, I bought my own copies of a lot of the books I didn’t already own, and some of them had some additions that weren’t there the first time. The Tenth Anniversary Edition of Elantris, for example, has some “deleted scenes,” plus a Hoid chapter added at the end. Fun stuff, if you haven’t read it.
I read Whitesand for the first time, and found myself wishing for a novel format to complete the details you just can’t get through a Graphic Novel format. There’s so much more there.
Beren @31. Good analysis. Not sure I think it is will be that straightforward, but well-articulated nonetheless.
Adler @36. Navani’s fabrial did increase pain. That was how she escaped Sadeas’ men in OB and saved Fen’s consort. I see that Birgit @47 beat me to this point.
Gepeto @38. Excellent point about that Dalinar telling Kaladin about the dark things in Dalinar’s past before him sharing that information with Renarin and Adolin first would have done far harm to Dalinar’s relationship with his sons than any good lessons that Kaladin may have learned from such knowledge. Further, Kaladin is the type that has to learn things himself. He is too stubborn to be told something. Kaladin has to experience something to get the value of the lesson rather than being told about the subject of the lesson beforehand.
Skybreaker301 @39. I disagree that each separate KR Order should have its own command structure independent of the other KR Orders. There needs to be one ultimate military commander. Otherwise, that can cause conflicting plans and lead to Radiants being killed when the various operations intersect. Here, the final general is Dalianr. He lets each Order decide how his orders should be carried out. But, if something occur within the Orders impacts the effectiveness, then Dalinar has the right to make the overruling order. Here, Dalinar is stepping in to take Kaladin off the front lines. It is for the betterment of the entire Honor army; not just the Windrunners.
All aboard the guess Kaladin’s 4th Ideal train. My guess: “It is ok if I failed to protect somebody as long as I tried my best.”
Kefka @45. You might be right about the 4Th Ideal concerning that Kaladin has to let others save him rather than Kaladin doing all the saving. I still am not convinced. Nevertheless, I took Syl’s quote in OB (“Maybe you don’t have to save anyone, Kaladin. Maybe it’s time for someone to save you.”) as meaning that the group can escape Shadesmar via Honor’s Perpendicularity. Somehow, someone created it (they did not know it was Dalinar at that point). Syl was saying that for once, someone else did something that saved Kaladin.
Gazeboist @54. Good analysis about the categories of the 4th & 5th Ideals of the Windrunners and Bondsmiths. IMO, a very plausible theory.
Gepeto @73. I do not think Kaladin would be a good choice to talk to the Honorspren. Kaladin bonded Syl and there are a number of Honorspren who would not be inclined to listen to either Syl or Kaladin because of that. Adolin actually may not be such a bad choice; if, and only, if, Maya can somehow progress enough to communicate in some way with the Honorspren. They may see the way that Adolin respects Maya as maybe humans are not beyond redemption. Otherwise, Maya’s presence will do more harm than good. On the other hand. A trip into Shadesmar may be beneficial for Shallan. If there is a secret 4th persona, Shallan may learn how to deal with it in Shadesmar. Let me be clear. I do not want Shallan to have a 4th hidden persona. I am perfectly fine with her living the rest of her life with the Three interacting as they have been so far in RoW. We do not need to have someone with DID actually get rid of all her/his personas. I believe John Nash eventually learned how to deal with his multiple personas.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@58 Scath
I know she’s been declared fully queen in her own right; my statement had more to do with the practical circumstances of the succession than the legal facts, and I should clarify. Because the succession wound up not being resolved until after Elhokar’s death, Jasnah has effectively been forced into a legitimacy crisis, because her opponents can always declare themselves to be regents for Gavinor (who was Elhokar’s legal heir, after all) if they want to rebel outright, or they can undermine her by trying to treat her as a regent rather than as queen regnant, “proposing” that she do things like share power with a council of Highprinces or the like. Potentially, depending on how influential they are, they could even turn Gavinor against her and precipitate a civil war as he comes of age. All of this could have been avoided if, for example, the Alethi had set minimum age for someone to inherit a title (which would have set up Jasnah, or perhaps Dalinar, as Elhokar’s heir presumptive until Gavinor was old enough to inherit, assuming Elhokar himself survived), or perhaps if they had some sort of clear regency law (which probably would have put Jasnah and/or Navani in charge anyway, frankly), so that the inheritance question at the end of Oathbringer wasn’t such a problem.
This sort of succession problem is all over the governments of Roshar; we have all of the problems Alethkar has had with various successions, whether to the throne overall or simply within individual princedoms; we have the six-sided civil war that Taravangian was able to set up in Jah Keved; we have that gerontocracy that’s ruled by a dynastic house; we have Prime Aqasix Yanagawn the Expendable; we have whatever divided Iri and Rira. I don’t think there’s any way we’re not going to get some sort of confrontation with the idea of successors and handing off leadership, and Dalinar’s character arc is probably the best place to explore that.
I really want Kaladin’s new orders to be he and Syl, with others probably, being sent to the honor Spren as ambassadors. I want more time in Shadesmar!
Kaladin’s arc parallel’s *Brandon’s* in a weird way. Writers sometimes have trouble letting characters die.
Kaladin is currently violating or trending toward violating all of the three-part Immortal Words.
-Life before death — he’s just considered suicide.
-Strength before weakness — his obsessive ideation about failure is weakening him.
-Journey before destination — worrying about possible future losses to the point that he can’t handle current problems.
Obviously, not so bad as to turn Syl deadeye yet, but he’s going that way (again).
@57. Myron
He could read in Way of Kings. It just doesn’t come up much. Remember, he wrote the countdown on the wall during Dalinar’s visions.
@59. Joe K
10-15 years.
@90 Gazeboist
Opponents can declare whatever they want. Earth history is ripe with it. Individuals who had to be locked away or killed not because they themselves had any intention of being a threat, but because an enterprising group decided to use that person as a figure head. That would have happened regardless how things unfolded. No ruler-ship is without its opponents. That doesn’t mean to me that there is a “legitimacy crisis”. If Aesudean was alive, that would be one thing, but both parents (Elhokar and Aesudean) are dead. Legitimately Jasnah is Queen. As to treating her as a regent, was the main reason Dalinar and Co chose Jasnah. Adolin didn’t feel he could get the highprinces to fall in line. Team Kholin all agreed Jasnah could and would. The highprinces reaction to Jasnah entering the room as queen says as much. As to turning Gavinor against her, I personally really do not see how. He is the heir. As things stand he will become king. He will not be king, while controlled behind the throne by a regent. When he inherits, he is it, full stop. I don’t see what he would have to gain. If anything he would have much to lose, because he would become a puppet of whatever group was pushing for him, like Shallan notes would have been the case with the Sons of Honor. Ialai would have been calling the shots, not Gavinor.
Further there is the way the Alethi chooses their rulers. The person who has the backing. Have enough people call you the head hancho, and you are one. WoB as well as the novels back that up. The Kholins have Urithiru, Radiants, armies, and technological advancements. Jasnah backed by that is truly stiff competition to work against. Which is why the Sons of Honor tried the whole cloak and dagger route instead of openly declaring against her. They would lose. Just in the end, they still lost even the cloak and dagger route.
Honestly succession wise, there really isn’t anything anyone legitimately has a leg to stand on against Jasnah.
In one of Dalinars visions a radiant said he should come to the radiants if he’s a fighter. Hopefully this is part of how Kaladin can heal.
“All who can fight are needed,” the woman said. “And all who have a desire to fight should be compelled to come to Alethela. Fighting, even this fighting against the Ten Deaths, changes a person. We can teach you so that it will not destroy you. Come to us.”
Re: the Recreance, the Humans being the Voidbringers, Surgebinding destroying Asyn
I don’t buy it. There is enough of the truth in the lie to make it seem right, but I don’t believe for one minute we have the whole story. Surgebinding isn’t what destroyed a planet. Odium is. I don’t think Surgebinding in and of itself has that kind of power, at least not with what we’ve seen so far. But maybe connected with something like the Dawnshards, whatever they are? Other than some artifact amplifying the surgebinding powers, only the power equivalent of a shard has enough power to do something like that.
The best lies are those that are mostly truth. It’s like Odium trying to rebrand himself as Passion. He just isn’t, no matter how much he says it. Repeat a lie enough, though, and people start to believe it.
KatherineMW @78. In SA, “Shellshocked” is a good pun as Kaladin has been fighting an enemy with caprice (i.e. a shell).
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I think the 4th oath will be, ” I will protect myself.” It lines up with both the situation in Oathbringer and this conversation with Dalinar. It lines up with the recording that was found. And it lines up with Kaladin’s surprise earlier in this book when the rebel leader left his men captured while he escaped.
From a plot standpoint, so far in this series, the removal of Kaladin from active duty is the right call given his frame of mind. From a character development perspective, this allows for growth in the character as well, I mean what more can Kaladin do as a soldier?
Some people have commented / wondered that removing him from active duty might lead to Kaladin slowly becoming more of a background character before fading away towards the end of book 5 (or sooner). I think the opposite is true, this allows for Kaladin to be used in other ways and continue to be at the forefront of SA – rather than remaining as a soldier with no new real arcs (only useful when there is a new bad guys to beat up, when not beating himself up) would just stagnate him, and by default, move him into a lesser important role. Sanderson could have “grandfathered” Kaladin into a minor role, but this gives him the ability to use a character we all know well to expand on his (and the SA) story.
Others here have somewhat alluded to this, maybe not in the full concept, but I believe Kaladin’s 4th ideal will be something along the lines of:
I will protect / save myself as I try to protect others, even if that means I must let others die.
I think there needs to be some realization on his part that he is important himself, not because he is a radiant, but because he is a human being. And as such, deserves protection and safety, rather than giving up everything of himself to save everyone else. And once he realizes that, perhaps he can let go of the ghosts that haunt him – Tien, Elokhar, Bridge 4 death, the slaves he tries to escape with, etc…
That is my hope, anyways.
@7. Keyblazing
You bring up an interesting thought that also occurred to me as I read the chapter.
While I do agree with others that the conversation between Kaladin and Yumfah was suppose to mirror the conversation between Kaladin and Dalinar wrt making command decisions that is best for the army as a whole, I wonder if Kaladin was pressing Yunfah for the exact reason you stated.
While I suspect this plot thread will center around the Listeners that escaped before the battle, I believe that as the Singers become more generally aware of what the Fused are doing to them could lead to a large portion eventually swapping to Team Dalinar (Venli’s arc?), especially if some of them realize they might be able to be radiants (or squires).
I do not think this will impact the Fused, especially those like Leshwi – whom I believe totally set up Kaladin to run into Moash, she way toying with Kaladin. She is honourable, in the way Amaran is honourable – in perception only.
There may be some Fused that swap sides but I do not think it will happen because of a possibility of becoming a Radiant or Fused / Radiant hybrid.
EDIT: Fixed typos, probably more, terrible typist.
@97
Been thinking about this as well, and think that the 4th Ideal will be something like “I must protect myself before I can protect others”. When Kal is able to care for himself, he’ll be able to say this Oath and get his shardplate – literal protection for himself.
@98 Same.
@100 rainer3
Interesting.
Never though of his not being able to say the 4th ideal about protecting himself, being tied to something that will literally protect him more (and likely, make him less of a primary target, where enemy forces go after those without plate).
@92 I really like this idea, that Kaladin is violating the primary oath of the Radiants.
It has never really come up before, that the first, shared ideal can be broken, it’s almost like so far they have been like a magic key phrase to start your path to radiance, and not actually something you have to adhere to. Shallan nearly lost herself in Oathbringer under similar circumstances, being unable to accept her own life and path, nearly succumbing to her other personalities.
Still rooting for you, Kaladin. <3
Cultivation and Kaladin need to have a meeting.
@103
I hope Kaladin doesn’t get a “magical” solution to his real mental health problems.
@74 Andrew. I am curious to hear what convoluted theory you have heard with respect to our friend Yunfah… I think I have missed that. I am genuinely curious.
Kaladin and Yunfah. I think what he did was wrong, but I do not blame him. He wants all of the original Bridge 4 to become Radiants. He is aware Rlain has always been a little bit outside the core group. He wants to do right by him which is good, but the means he chose to do so is wrong. I am curious to read how this will pan out.
Shattered Plains: It seems they have fallen outside both Alethkar and Urithiru control. Dalinar is certainly trying to reclaim them back for his kingdom.
@77 El Cochino. As one of the readers who have been against the fights, I feel I need to rephrase my opinion. I am not against Kaladin having had fights even if I admit they are not my personal cup of tea. What bothered was the fact we got three of them in a row with little differences between them, a fact Sanderson himself has acknowledged and nearly corrected as he seriously considered not including the third fight. That third fight has always been what I have been complaining about.
@78 Katherin. Agree about Rlain. Think of how he would feel if he were to find out the only reason Yunfah is taking an interest in him is that Kaladin ordered him to? How not to feel even more left out and singled-out: the one Bridge 4 member that needed their Highmarshal to force a spren to consider him by giving it an ultimatum… That’s tough.
@89 Andrew. I do not know if Kaladin is the best choice, but I am convinced Adolin isn’t. I sincerely doubt Maya will have progressed enough to impress the Honorsprens. Sanderson seems to be going for the long-run here, Maya will not have progressed in the time gap, and Adolin himself has literally no idea she can even be revived. Thus, I doubt she’ll be the reason why Adolin gets sent and not Kaladin (or another Windrunner for that matter).
My personal thoughts are Adolin gets sent because: he is Dalinar’s son and heir to the King, he has political legitimacy, and Dalinar may have plans for Adolin to bond a spren of his own. Seeing Kaladin act with Rlain, it doesn’t seem out of the loop other Radiants would have similar plans with other people close to them. I don’t think he needs more reason to get picked though I also think he certainly will not get sent here while being… a Shardbearer. My speculation is Adolin will be asked to unbind Maya because no way Dalinar believes a Shardbearer will convince the Honorsprens.
Still, even if bonded to Syl, I do think Kaladin would have been a better picked. He is the first Windrunner in centuries. He single-handily formed a battalion of new Windrunners: he seems better placed to speak in the name of Windrunners than… Adolin… I mean, the Shardbearer who dishonorably killed a man in a dark tunnel seems like…, not a good pick.
So my other thoughts are Kaladin will be the one to convince the Honorsprens, though not by going to Lasting Integrity, but by doing “something”. He cannot keep on failing and I don’t buy he’ll commit suicide. So if he isn’t going for the “heroic sacrifice” nor for the “evil path”, then that certainly has to be it.
@7 Keyblazing, @99 Steve-son-son-Charles
I think you both have the right take on Kaladin’s direction to Yumfah.
This was a great chapter, I loved the continued adherence to actual physics with the discussion of lift on Navani’s airship thing. I also think this will give Kaladin a fresh environment that will hopefully keep him from WoR levels of cringe and self-loathing.
To add my thoughts to the discussion of Kaladin’s order to the spren, I don’t really see an issue. We’ve only really seen Kaladin, Lift, and Shallan’s relationships with their spren and, given Pattern’s willingness to step aside and let Shallan bond a different Cryptic, I think it’s fair to assume that most Radiants don’t have the same relationship with their spren as Kal and Syl. When we see them talking it’s hard to imagine that they aren’t just meant for each other somehow, but this doesn’t seem to be the way it always, or even normally, works. I think most spren see it as more of a practical relationship, so Kalladin’s order seems quite fair, especially seeing as the spren in question doesn’t feel particularly strongly about the issue other than being kinda racist.
I am certain Kaladin already knows the 4th ideal of the windrunners. He just can’t say it. He’s not ready. And as he is now, I don’t think he’s capable of saying it (and he knows this too).
I don’t know the precise words, but I am certain it involves acknowledging and accepting his own grief and his failures, when they occur. And more than that: to keep going, to do what is right, because it is right – in spite of that grief and failure.
He has some things to go through and some burdens to put down before he can. He has some grieving he needs to work through. If he can. But I for one, am looking forward to wherever his personal journey takes him.
Kaladin’s depression makes me feel a lot of things, especially as someone who has struggled with depression. It’s amazing how a character in a book can make me feel so sad.
I feel like him saying the 4th ideal is tied with his PTSD and his depression and I feel it is extremely depressing for him (and others) to feel like he’ll never say the 4th ideal.
I believe in you Kaladin!!
“His name had been Kaladin Stormblessed”
A moment of rebirth is coming…again. The question is what the end result of Kaladin’s evolution will look like – good or evil. I cannot shake the feeling, on account of his affinity with the leader of the Heavenly Ones, that he may fall for a Parshendi and switch sides. I’m 90% sure that he will speak the Fourth Ideal eventually though. Would Brandon really throw a curveball like that? The rebuilder of the Order of Windrunners being unable to progress beyond the three standard oaths? I’d be equal parts surprised, disappointed and delighted. Some warped part of me loves when the hero doesn’t get everything that I want and expect him to…
@109 I realised the exact same thing for the first time while I was reading. Kaladin always makes me feel so deeply sad. I think his character does resonate with people who have suffered/are suffering from depression. Dalinar’s story in Book 3 had the same effect on me but was encouraging in that he finally accepts himself and his imperfect past. Both, myself and Kaladin are endeavouring to do the same.
So if the pain fabriel gives our removes pain depending on the setting or dial of the outside metals, does the same hold true for the fabriel they put in the fireplace? Could it extinguish a fire and be a firefighting tool in a society that only has a bucket brigade as its solution?
What about the spanreids that are moving the airship, where the chulls have to ‘walk back’ or turn around, could you instead just turn a dial and keep heading in the same direction?
Then there is the bond dampening device used in the house. Granted we still don’t know what that blocked as it seemed to be external actions only, but what would it do in reverse? Perhaps that is why the device in Urthurtu looks identical?
I’m not familiar with all the other gems and their powers, but a simple tool to reverse them might also act to negate a similar device, again like the one in the house, which would be good to have for team honor in the future.
@93, Scath:
We actually don’t know that Aesudan is dead. Odium says, “But be warned, the queen at Kholinar tried this, and the power consumed her.” That doesn’t mean she’s dead, necessarily.
@99, Steve-son-son-Charles:
I think Leshwi considers her actions to be completely honorable. Remember, all the Fused are mad to various degrees, just like their counterparts, the Heralds.
@112, BS fan:
They walk back and turn around because otherwise they’d have to walk hundreds of miles across the Shattered Plains to move the airships that far. Navani is already using a reversing system (a different one, involving aluminum) so they can reverse the chulls while the airship keeps going in the same direction.
Hmm … “Life before death” would be a Cultivation thing. “Strength before weakness” isn’t obviously either Honor or Cultivation (to me). “Journey before destination” is absolutely Honor, in my mind. Did they collaborate on the Immortal Words?
Just for fun: did Navani’s prototype flying vehicle have chicken wings, or larkin wings?
Kaladin is one of the few non-spren people we’ve seen talk to the Stormfather directly. (Dalinar of course, Kaladin, Lopen, and a few non-Radiants during Navani and Dalinar’s wedding, right?) Maybe a chat with the largest remnant of Honor would be therapeutic for him? Of course, he would never think of it, because he is absolutely terrible at asking for help for himself. Syl could ask Daddy, though.
@77 and many many others
Maybe I was reading too much into it, but it seemed to me that Yunfah WANTED to try Rlain, but his own personal pride (another defining characteristic of honorspren) wouldn’t allow it. He needed to be ordered into it, so he had some sort of internal justification. He obeyed too quickly for his reluctance to have been genuine.
This was the best chapter so far. Very short but so, so good. I totally agree with @13 @18.
I felt it in my heart when Kal said he was tired. Makes me also wonder how Brandon captures Kaladins depression so perfectly and if he went through something similar or spoke to people who have.
I see why some people think that allowing him to fade into the background of the story could be natural and well – not unrealistic. But tbh I’m way too attached to Kaladin to accept that. I want him to fight the darkness in him and come out on top. Besides, it would be quite depressing if after everything he just accepted that that was his lot in life – even though it may be how things are most of the time in rl.
A supernatural fix would be extremely dissappointing and not like Sanderson at all. Kaladin’s character is just too real and complex for that. Besides, I don’t think we can expect or want a “cure” – that would just be silly.
And how great was Dalinar?! The real MVP.
@113 Carl
True we do not have “explicit” confirmation, but for myself I believe Occam’s Razor applies in this case. But to each their own.
This chapter was beautifully sad – I really do ache for Kaladin although I love Danilar for trying to take care of him here.
Echoing what others have said here – I do think there’s some really interesting potential for Kaladin’s character outside of battle scenes (which I admit I tend to glaze over) and soldiering and to me the thread that feels he most intriguing is the idea that this could force him into more interactions with Lirin and the two of them coming to terms with things (I certainly would prefer that than the idea that this will spur some heel turn).
Not sure how I feel about Yunfah and Rlain. I LOVE that Kaladin feels so protective of him but I do kind of worry Rlain might resent it if he feels singled out or pitied. I at least appreciated that he wasn’t flat out ordered to bond him (seems a bit antithetical to a spren bond) but at least give him a chance.
Would a cure for Kaladin’s depression really be that bad or unrealistic? I can’t imagine that there’s one person on this planet that suffers from depression that would turn down a cure. It’s a debilitating illness that detracts rather than adds to life; it’s not a disability that people can embrace or define themselves by, like being blind or deaf. And in a world where magical healing is possible, I would think that would be one thing that SHOULD be healed and not anger many people in real life.
@118 Austin
I think the point for many is there is a difference between “cure” and “manage”. Add to it that depression and the like are invisible, results in a societal view that is frequently “can’t you just get over it?”. The reality is it is an aspect of your life that you have to learn to live with, and work around. An alcoholic for instance has to avoid bars, and request that when he or she goes out to eat with friends, that they not drink. It is not something he or she can just get over or be cured of. It is a constant and continual fight and I believe people feel that should be recognized. That is why I said there is a difference between cure and manage. Cure implies it is gone. Done. Finito. Manage on the other hand shows that an individual can still have it, still have to work through it, but get to a point where they can live a productive and happy life. So for Kaladin, he does not have to be “cured” to “be ok”. What he does need is understanding, support, and real hard work to get there.
(just in case, was not referring to anyone in this or any other thread regarding the “can’t you just get over it” comment. I was referring to the unfortunate societal stigma associated)
I wonder if in 10 days, Yunfah will bond Rlain, and he reaches the fourth ideal almost immediately. That would be an interesting role reversal. The most notable Windrunner is removed from action and the least-likely Windrunner, comes out at the top.
So 1st question is this are there no flying birds in roshar? I remember Dalinar eating chicken and calling it a strange flying creature from Shinovar. 2nd question is if Honor was a Listener God the first knights Radiant would have been Parshendi?
I think Kaladin is correct in ‘nudging’ the old man spren into bonding Rlian, I recall in TWOK where Szeth slaughters the soldiers on his way to Gavilar.
“Holding his breath, he clung to the Stormlight. He could still feel it leaking out. Stormlight could be held for only a short time, a few minutes at most. It leaked away, the human body too porous a container.
He had heard that the V oidbringers could hold it in perfectly. But, then, did they even exist? His punishment declared that they didn’t. His honor demanded that they did”
I think this may help those who have not experienced or know of people with such conditions. Managing looks something like this (keep in mind these are just examples, these conditions affect people in a variety of ways and severity):
Anxiety: Overwhelming feelings of panic and stress. Everything that can go wrong, will go wrong, and its all your fault. It is like a voice screaming in your head that you are the cause of everything bad in the world. Medication can “turn down the volume” on the screaming voice. So it is not so loud. Breathing practices to calm down. Mentally taking a step back, and viewing the situation objectively. Remove the individuals own involvement and realize how the things occurring are independent from them. Break down the problem into smaller, less overwhelming “steps” and confront them one at a time. So all of this is still going on in the individual’s head, just because of these tactics, it helps them manage it, and hopefully avoid a panic attack, or locking them into inaction. It enables them to still live a productive and happy life.
Depression: Overwhelming feelings of loss, sorrow, and hopelessness. Everything that can go wrong, will go wrong, and there is nothing you can do about it. It is like a voice replaying a recording over and over again telling you how nothing matters, everything ends, and there is no point. Medication can reduce the volume on that record that is on repeat. It helps the individual feel like they can make affirmations “louder” and listen to that instead of the damaging “inner voice” of depression. Similar to anxiety, some tactics include trying to take a step back from the situation (as we have seen Kaladin mentally attempt to do on several occasions), and try to see it objectively. Realize when the emotions he is feeling is really “him” versus “depression”. He feels everyone is going to die and he will fail. Take a step back. Breathe. Think it through. Has anything happened recently to cause him to feel this way? Has he done anything that makes him think it will happen? No? Then affirm the positive things in his life. Affirm the positive actions he is taking. Talk to (ideally) a professional that can help him work through his feelings and reinforce his accomplishments. Once again, it helps manage it. He will still have depression. Still have dark thoughts. But he will have tools to help him manage it and lessen the impact, or help him handle it when it comes in force. Thereby it still exists, and he can still live a productive and happy life.
Ah one more thing, sorry for double post but haven’t had a chance to login to my account. I think also part of the reason for the back and forth is because of the invisible nature of these conditions. From the outside you just see a person with no clear or physical pain. On the inside, the person is a whirlwind of emotions, and feelings. I think it is a mark of Sanderson as a write that he chose to tackle this true to the conditions. That now a whole section of the population that would never know or get to experience what individuals with these conditions go through, can see what goes on behind such individuals eyes. That this is their experience everyday of their lives and they have to “just deal” with it. Media is meant to be enjoyed but has also services as societal and cultural commentary since time immemorial. The avenue Brandon has chosen in this case happens to be such conditions.
I don’t think it is wrong for kaladin to order him to consider Rlein before anyone else. Even though he is being grumpy about it the Spren himself is looking for guidance in Kaladin’s leadership to help him decide whom to bond. And from the sounds of it no honor Spren would even consider bonding a Singer/Listener, whether honorable or not, because they are the enemy. It’s only fair that they start considering him a candidate whether this old man Spren or a different honor Spren later bonds him.
@113
I’ve noticed the same thing about the immortal words. Not sure if the third god is supposed to be Odium (and what if the Thaylen Passions) or another one.
It also just occured to me, since Dalinar is now king of Urithiru… could the triarchic system in Iri be a remnant of how Bondsmiths used to rule the Radiants?
4th ideal might be
I won’t let the things I can’t do, stop me from doing the things I can do.
on the topic of the fourth ideal I was thinking about it we only know one fourth ideal for an order and that’s the skybreakers crusade ideal, where they undertake a quest in the name of justice. so my theory is that the Windrunner ideal won’t be so much letting go of the guilt but that you take a “quest” to protect one specific group this would explain the ancient knight asking why they shouldn’t protect everyone. this is just a theroy
125. Medeinė-OOOHHHH… I like the Iri theory. It makes sense given that Alakar rules by eye color and that’s a throwback from the Old Windrunner Knights.
I think there’s a bigger Connection between the lands and the spiritweb of the inhabitants (Singer and Human and all others alike). We get Parsh that are newly awakened taking on traits of the lands that they reside in. Some people my just think that they are just emulating the humans in that area (for instance-the Parsh that petitioned the courts in Azmir about stopping their labors Vs the Parsh in Alakar that physically rebelled) but I was wondering if that’s a deeper connection with the land. After all, when Roshar had the 10 kingdoms they corresponded with the 10 orders of KR. Maybe Urithiru was built where it was because it’s in a “dead zone”?
Sorry, I ramble….I’m just SUPER EXCITED for this book….
Lots of good ideas about Kaladin’s fourth ideal. I’m leaning towards it being about healing/taking care of himself before others. The reason being…
“Kaladin brushed his fingers at his forehead and the scars he still bore. Unhealed, despite all of his powers, years after he’d been branded.”
I think the scars will heal once he says the fourth ideal.
Random aside – I just read Edgedancer and I love Lift! She’s the best.
The 10 days is probably like a week for us. It is a natural time period for Roshar.
The reason other nations had trouble with succession is that Taravangian made Szeth kill any candidate who was chosen by whatever system they had.
Oh, it seems that Renarin came with the group to Narak, after all, as did Rock. I am worried about the Fourth Bridge again. I really don’t understand what’s going to prevent the Fused from destroying such a slow-moving and visible target. Or worse yet – the Skybreakers, with Division. And think about what a huge blow to the coalition morale it would be! Kaladin taking many of the most experienced Windrunners with him wouldn’t have helped the matters either. Maybe there are Lighweavers on bord who camouflage the airship when in flight? But even so, the Fused would be able to track it by sound. Hundreds of people can’t be silent all the time.
Did Kaladin inform Laral of her husband’s death? Seems like an odd omission.
If the “orphaned” spren normally look to bond again quickly, doesn’t it mean that Nale had to do more than kill nascent Radiants? That he had to also capture their spren, somehow? Like the Fused clearly intended to do to Ehlokar’s spren? Also, can it be that only a fraction of highspren follow Nale? IIRC, from Szeth’s observations in OB the Skybreakers numbered a little over a hundred, including the squires. Too bad that the priority is now on convincing the honorspren – I have been wanting to read about one of the protagonists giving the highspren a piece of their mind since WoR. Huh, could the highspren be involved in the situation somehow? That would be interesting.
Is Yunfah normal in his ability to keep his mind for “a few months” without the bond?
And yay, Sanderson said on reddit that we’ll get a character that we haven’t seen in this book yet as the next PoV, so we’ll finally see Venli and she’ll hopefully give us rundown on the Fused from her vantage point. Can’t wait!
I would like to get another Lirin chapter before the end of part 1 and get a picture of what’s going on with the Fourth Bridge and how normal people are reacting to all the madness around them. I really want everybody to survive, but in a believable way. I still hope that they would pick up Evi’s brother from Herdaz along the way.
Medeine @125:
Yes, I think so too. Though the general Radiant membership probably functioned as an assembly, so that it wasn’t just the Bondsmiths as an autocratic triumvirate . Certainly the huge great hall in Urithiru suggests that.
Odium has no part in the Immortal Words, IMHO, except for when you invert them.
Is it just me or are the chapters getting shorter?
@131 Isilel
I don’t think lightweavers were mentioned, but if they were employed as you suggest, to hide the “ship”, then I do not think sound would be a problem. Illumination is the surge of wavelengths, which includes sound among them. Pattern commented about how Shallan’s illusions at the time shouldn’t have to be silent. I would imagine if you could make sound by manipulating wavelengths, you could also deaden such sound. Which I would imagine would be crucial for an order of knights made for spies and assassins.
@112 – My guess is that both fabrials (the one Kaladin encountered and the one at the core of Urithiru) are designed to suppress the ability of specific kinds of spren to manifest in Roshar. That would fit with Kaladin temporarily losing his powers and Urithiru, back when it functioned, serving as a safe haven against creatures from thunderclasts to midnight essence.
@128 – My interpretation was always that the parsh had just picked up the local culture while trapped in slaveform. After all, we don’t just see them following the broad strokes of the cultures around them; we see a pair of New Singers trying to reconstruct a specific card game that they observed their former owners playing. Their memories of enslavement are fuzzy, but they have them, which is perfectly sufficient to me to explain why they seem to fit in with the cultures that once enslaved them. I doubt it’s a magical effect; I think it has more to do with Sanderson’s desire to reflect the cultural condition of former slaves after the American Civil War.
@132 – Tough to say without doing a wordcount, but I think it’s a combination of this chapter being a bit shorter (despite its impact; it only has one perspective in it, compared to two or three in prior chapters) together with the fact that we got a few weeks of two-chapter posts before Tor went to a single chapter per week.
As for magic curing depression: it cured/managed mine. After years of cyclic depression that was quite severe at times a new drug came out. I had been on several different drugs and endless self-examination over the years that didn’t work. Then a new one finally worked. It was nothing I did that fixed me: it was a chemical reaction. I call that magic.
Kaladin is unlikely to get a pill as a fix but magic may not be out of the question as a means to reach the point where he can then help himself.
@135 goddessimho
I am very happy for you that the medication has helped you manage the symptoms of depression. I wish you luck with your journey!
As to magic curing depression or helping manage it, I think it depends on how you view the magic. If you mean stormlight healing, then we have confirmation that it does not work that way but from in text and WoB. If you mean spren such as Syl being that ear to listen, and a voice to speak with to help combat the negative thoughts, then sure.
@128 RavenPrincess
I like the thought about Connection playing a role in the behavior of Singers, and possibly everyone else, throughout the various kingdoms. I think Connection runs strong on Roshar, and the Singers already express a manifestation of it with the rhythms.
@several re: a magical cure for depression… Well, as someone who has bouts of clinical depression, I would personally LOVE a magical cure. Not just a way to manage symptoms – an actual cure so I never had to deal with this again. I’d love that. At the same time, we know that IRL it doesn’t work quite that way; even the best of medications are a means of managing symptoms (as far as I know), you have to keep taking the medication (meaning you aren’t cured, because it’s still there if you stop the treatment), and as your body ages or adjusts, the medication may stop working for you. I appreciate that Sanderson is willing to treat it as the real condition it is for human beings – though at the same time, I’m not sure I’d mind if he allowed it to be magically cured. My biggest argument against it is not that it’s unrealistic; it’s that the characters would be less relatable.
100: I like that as the 4th oath.
Ben M.
PS I was thinking what my Shin name would be. I guess I would be Ben-son-son-Theodore. Or else Ben-son-Dennis. :]
For the 4th ideal I’ve wondered if it’ll be a full circle thing for the wind runners or Kaladin. Like along the lines or similar to strength before weakness. He needs to be strong for everyone he can(but not become weak when it’s not enough). Kaladin has to learn to keep moving forward, but just because he’s moving forward it doesn’t mean he cares any less for those he lost or those he couldn’t help.
I have to agree with Scath. @godessimho it’s amazing to hear that a pill worked so well for you. I’m by no means an expert but I do think that that’s rare. And @Wetlandernw the reason I would hate to see it happen here is because what Kal says resonates with me and an instant fix after so much hardship is just – to me – unrealistic and as a result instantly less relatable.
If you’ve been through a lot, it’s not ‘just’ feelings that you have to get over or that you need to learn to think differently – you have to live with facts – things that have happened and try to believe that it’s up to you to make things better, that you’re still in control and everything you do now isn’t futile.
@118 so while I don’t think depression is something to be embraced it might well be something you can’t heal from and I think Brandon portrays the struggle extremely well.
@61
That honestly makes psychological sense to me.
On another note: great theories on the fourth ideal! I’m throwing my lot in with those speculating it has to do with accepting harsh realities and one’s own limits. But also: maybe it’s about change or giving second chances? Like how Elhokar and Roshone were changing (and Seth!) and how Kal himself in speaking the fourth ideal would be giving himself a second chance.
I really hope no one’s been holding back for Kal.
And while I totally understand people’s discomfort with Kaladin’s admittedly very obtrusive ‘suggestion’ to the spren, I don’t mind it all that much. It was just an order to ‘try’. Maybe this particular spren – also seeing as it’s an honorspren maybe unsurprisingly- needed a nudge to let go of old grudges and overcome old prejudices.
So just a point of clarity, because I am confused why this keeps coming up (not saying that there is anything wrong with people bringing it up). I do not believe anyone has said at any point that they like being depressed, or anxious, or what have you. I think what they are saying they like being seen. Just like I doubt anyone would like to be enslaved, yet there are many novels and movies and tv shows that speak on such an issue and many feel it is important to be true to such. I could list a whole host of unpleasant circumstances or experiences that we have in media because it gives people the ability to step into someone else’s shoes, see themselves in others, and look up to someone (the holocaust, various wars, segregation and racism, slavery, lgbtq+, and many many others). But I do not think that is saying people are supposed to enjoy the negative experiences associated with those things (the horrible treatment of the jewish people, the horrors of trench warfare and POW torture, lynching and whippings, beatings and killings).
So TLDR, I do not think that by saying an individual would like to see depression or what have you be shown real to life, means they enjoy experiencing it. Nor do I think that is saying if given the option they would not like it cured. All I think it is saying is that they appreciate the representation and the ability to identify with someone that they feel they could look up to and feel seen.
Again, want to stress this is in no way shape or form commentary on anyone’s personal belief’s or views. Just what I believe is the reason some individuals appreciate Kaladin, Shallan, Renarin, Dalinar, Teft, and (potentially) Jasnah and their journey.
Maybe the 4th Ideal will be the inverse of the 3rd Ideal (protecting even those you hate). Something along the lines of accepting that you can’t protect everyone and if you have to choose, then you will protect the ones you love.
Trying not to sound like an insensitive jerk, but I don’t much care about Rlain’s feelings if he had to take what amounts to a pity bond. Desolation time means all hands on deck, especially given the nature of the enemy they face. And although as a leader one should do their best to understand and take into consideration the mental state of those they command, they must also be able to order things their people may not like. Sending Rlain into battle without a bond is like sending a modern soldier into battle with a bow and arrow instead of a rifle. If Rlain is truly the best of the unbonded Bridge 4 members then it’s a disservice to him and the war effort to not do everything possible to equip him with the best weapons possible. If his feelings are hurt by this at least he’ll be alive to complain about it.
I don’t believe Kaladin gets phased completely out of the narrative, his arc means too much to both the story and the Fandom. But his death spiral depression phase had to end. Maybe the relief of duty represents Kaladin’s rock bottom moment. It certainly felt like it to read. However I think he can recover without joining team Odium and the key to this happens to have a POV in part 1. It’s gotta be Lirin. That reconciliation will be key to Kaladin’s recovery though I expect it to be a somewhat painful process. I doubt he will ever be fully healed, magically or not, but he can achieve a better place mentally.
From Kaladin’s perspective, I think he sees the discussion with Yumfah as more of a simple command decision than anything. He has a soldier’s mentality, and (at the time) a Highmarshal, chain of command decisions needs to be made. That being said, Kaladin implied it as an order, but I think he realized that Yumfah needs to come to the decision on his own, hence allowing some leeway.
I think it would have been interesting to see is if Yumfah had not made a decision after 10 days, what would Kaladin have done?
I guess we will never know, as Kaladin has been removed from his position, but I suspect the point is moot and it is pretty much a given that Yumfah will bond Rlain.
@146, EvilMonkey
I am pretty curious about how they reconcile Rlain actually fighting the Fused. I can’t imagine that it’s actually face-to-face, maybe only Thunderclasts or rescue missions? Also he would probably level up fairly quickly. Doing his job alone clears the first two ideals. He would obviously hate humans, so it wouldn’t take “much” to protect some innocents to get to the third ideal. Fourth could be tied to when/if he actually fights against his brethren.
It is clear to me the fourth ideal has something to do with self forgiveness and letting go of the past.
To me this makes the most sense because as he is about to say the words he remembers all those he lost. And he loses it when he thinks of his brother Tien.
@146, EvilMonkey (and others)
I don’t think it’s correct to even call it a “pity bond” or whatever. I think the comments above making comparisons to desegregation in the US Army – this is something vaguely akin to a white lieutenant resisting orders from a colonel that he serve as a newly-promoted black captain’s executive officer. If all the lieutenants in the battalion refuse like that, they can essentially veto the colonel’s decision to promote the captain, but they’ll be disobeying orders. Now, it’s not a perfect comparison because there’s more to the nahel bond than a simple ability to work together, but if you look at what Kaladin actually says to Yunfah, he’s pretty clearly in the role of an officer trying to promote a subordinate and dealing with prejudice-rooted resistance from others under his authority. Kaladin might or might not be wrong about whether Rlain would make a good Windrunner, but he clearly recognizes him as a worthy Radiant in general and wants to give him the promotion he deserves, and Yunfah’s stated reason for not considering him is not acceptable, whether or not they ultimately do form a bond. In fact it’s an attitude that Kaladin is very right to try to squash in the honorspren whenever he can, regardless of they’re bonded to a listener or new singer, since anti-parsh prejudice is only going to cause problems for the Windrunners in the future.
I still think Rlain may not ultimately form a proper bond with Yunfah for other reasons – while he is clearly an excellent soldier and I think he would make a good radiant broadly speaking, I don’t see him as being particularly protective. As I’ve said before, his actions and his status scream “Truthwatcher” to me; I’d love to see him as our principle non-corrupted view into that order. Rlain is definitely of Bridge Four, but that doesn’t require that he be a Windrunner, any more than it requires that Renarin be one. This wouldn’t be him “rejecting a pity bond”, though; it would be him recognizing that he’s a poor fit for the Windrunner order and joining one where he’ll be able to go further – akin to a soldier transferring from, say, a tank unit to leg infantry when he finds he drives poorly but is an excellent marksman. After all we had that example from the epigraphs in Oathbringer of a radiant who joined the Lightweavers and just turned out to be a terrible fit for the order and got stuck around the Second Ideal, when he could have succeeded admirably in a different order. That’s definitely something that needs to be avoided going forward for exactly the reasons you point out – they need as many Radiants as they can get, as advanced as those Radiants can be, and that means ensuring a good fit between the Radiant and the Ideals they’ll be speaking.
Kaladin might travel to shadsmar to convince honor sprens to join windrunners.
@@@@@ Gazeboist
I totally agree. I called it a pity bond because of others on the board but I don’t consider it one myself. Rlain may not be a Windrunner but he does deserve the chance to try. BTW, what about Rlain gives you Truthwatcher vibes?
@@@@@Keyblazing
I’m currently rereading OB and just happened to get Rlain’s take on the subject of fighting Fused. Turns out he’d have no problem with it as the Listeners fought like hell to keep them from returning and they’re responsible for wiping out his people. The question is, will his command structure believe him? Kaladin likely understands his feelings but he isn’t in charge anymore. The other members of Bridge 4 love and defend him but don’t likely understand him.
As someone who struggles with depression and has had similar thoughts to Kaladin, this last thought cut me deep. I’ve been there. Put on a good face. Don’t let people see you drowning. Don’t be a burden on other people. Don’t let them know that the only thing keeping you breathing is sheer force of will.
Kaladin’s in deep trouble and nobody seems able to see it.
Gazebost @150:
I just finished re-reading Oathbringer less than a week ago and had no memory of this, and I just now looked back over the epigraphs, and I can’t find anything resembling this situation. Could you point me to it?
Aside from that, though, I generally agree with you: I have absolutely no problem with the way Kaladin handled the situation.
The epigraph speaks of the Lightweaver who was a good soldier but couldn’t reach the self actualization required to advance to his final truth. I believe it’s in WoR actually, not OB, and it’s an excerpt from the in-world WoR book.
@121, Funakidajam:
The Alethi, at least, call all birds “chickens” and all small mammals “minks”. (They also call all alcoholic drinks “wine”. For some reason, their language lost a lot of its nouns.)
They refer to Mraize’s parrot-like companion bird as a “chicken,” too. It might be worth mentioning that actual chickens (Gallus gallus) can fly, although not well.
Syl explains that the Knights Radiant happened when spren like her copied what Honor had done in creating the Heralds (and their Honorblades). The Heralds are human, so this happened after the “Great Side-Changing” when humans became “Sons of Honor.” There’s an epigraph where the Listeners complain that spren abandoned their ancestors because human emotions were tastier or more nutritious to them than Singer emotions. Apparently, Timbre is the first Radiant Spren to bond a Singer, ever.
So, it seems pretty clear that Kaladan is going to shadesmar to recruit more honor spren. I’d put good money on that being his whole thing this book.
He can’t fight (cantcrowcantfly), they keep mentioning the lack of spren, he needs to find something to do, it was mentioned that the honor spren respect him more so than others, and he needs to say his 4th ideal or make peace with not ever doing so
I haven’t read through all the comments so I apologize if someone has mentioned this already.
You know, thinking about the Ideals and spren bonds, I find it weird that everyone who followed Kaladin, be it former slaves or soldiers, are all personality fits for Windrunners. I thought spren bonded based on compatibility? But with Kaladin just about ordering a spren bond, it almost seems irrelevant now. Shouldn’t his followers have different personalities that more closely align with the Ideals of other Orders?
@156 Carl- Didn’t Honor create the Heralds BEFORE they came to Roshair or am I misreading? I think I’m missing something because the KR didn’t form until the Parsh switched sides, which didn’t happen for some expanse of time (hundreds or thousands) of years AFTER the humans resettled. BUT the Heralds (except maybe one) were all from Ashyn and at that time Honor was the god of the Parsh. Humans didn’t live that long, and before they “ascended” (for lack of a better word) the Heralds were just plain, ordinary humans.
I’m confused…..=(
Can somebody please tell me what I’m missing in the timeline? Or do we just not know yet? Is this a RAFO?
@157 Nathan. The Amazon blurb for RoW states Adolin and Shallan will be leading the mission to Shadesmar, so Kaladin is not going. I guess we’ll read the details as to why though I have my personal theories. I think Dalinar will not want to send Kaladin because he will not trust him with a mission due to his problems being too severe. I also think, in parallel, it may be possible Syl does not want to go because she is the Ancient Daughter. I think Dalinar will be looking for new battlefield leadership for the Windrunners and he’ll have ideas as to who he wants to put there.
@158 Austin. I raise the point in a previous week. How was it all bridgemen turned out being a “victim of circumstances”, managed to become better persons while all fitting within the same order? Surely there were more “Moash” within the group and a lot of those guys must have been real convicts and guilty of grave crimes… Not all were victims of evil lighteyes… So it has always been odd to me Kaladin’s successes with them was 100% effective.
Logically, there should have been former convicts happy to go back to their former crimes, there should have been individuals uninterested in reforming themselves, and there should have been individuals not suited to become Windrunners.
On Kaladin and his Progression: I want Kaladin’s character to deliver good pay-off for the focuses he has been getting. I would not find “status quo” or “precarious balance” a very satisfying outcome, so I would either he deals with his problems (either magically or not) or he ends up as a tragic figure. Either one of those outcomes would satisfy me though I would also prefer if the rest of the book was not so heavily Kaladin focused. I much prefer reading the other narratives.
@160 Gepeto
That still feels like a bait and switch. Adolin and Shallan might be the ones with the mission but I still feel like Kaladan is the one to bring it home.
I think the reason I don’t really agree with the posts equating Kaladin’s order to Yunfah to something equivalent to desegregation of the US military is that the spren bond, as seen with Shallan and Kaladin is an extraordinarily close relationship – more akin to a marriage than to employment or being a fellow soldier. I think most people would have no interest in dating someone who had to be ordered to ‘give them a chance’, and I think most people, Rlain included, would feel the same about a spren bond,
@159, RavenPrincess:
I don’t remember anything about the Heralds being created before the human Ashynites migrated to Roshar. The Heralds themselves are that old, as people, but I don’t believe they were Heralds before the arrived on Roshar. They just seem to be very long-lived. (It’s funny to me that they’re older than Warbreaker the Great, and yet Wit thinks of them as barely out of infancy.)
There’s something odd about them in general. Ash knows the name “Adonalsium,” for one, which I wouldn’t expect any non-Vessel non-Hoid to know. And she’s the youngest Herald.
Well, maybe Khriss. In fact, definitely Khriss. And the Ire. OK, lots of people probably know that name.
I think you might just be assuming that, “… the Heralds were just plain, ordinary humans … ” before they became Cognitive Shadows. And I think it can’t be right, as you say, if the timeline is to make any sense. Remember that Ashyn’s Surgebinders were powerful enough to devastate an entire planet. I also suspect that Ashyn had both Odium-followers and Honor-followers (and probably Cultivation-followers) at the time of its destruction, just as “present day” Roshar has followers of all three (among both Singers and humans).
@@@@@ 159 RavenPrincess
I think you are misremembering. They were regular humans on Ashyn, traveled to Roshar and then became Heralds there. The exact amount of time it took is unknown, especially since Ashyn still has humans. Coppermind link is below:
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13442
@@@@@ 158 Austin, 160 Gepeto
You’re assuming that the Alethi justice system is fair, which isn’t quite accurate. They could be there for a number of reasons. Secondly, only really Bridge 4 and some of the members of the other bridges became squires. Lastly, technically slavery was prison for the bridge crews. Whether or not all reform is genuine is fair game, but constantly facing death and seeing a leader basically given amazing powers as a reward for how he acts would a huge incentive to be on their best behavior. It would at least push them to mimic that behavior in a way.
Not all. Rats are called rats. It’s probably just small predators that are “minks”. There probably aren’t that many mammals besides rats and horses outside Shinovar. The “minks” might actually be cats.
EvilMonkey @155:
Good call. It’s in WoR, chapter 57:
It’s not clear at which stage Malchin was stymied; Second Ideal is likely but not definite from the quote. In fact, it’s vaguely possible that he tried to join but the Lightweavers knew his personality and denied him before he started.
And it leaves the question of why it was so important to him that he be a Lightweaver; I’ve got to imagine that if you fail in one Order you could try a different one. Some people would probably be suitable for more than one. Then again, there are certainly people who want to do something they’re not capable of and aren’t willing to settle for something else, so that could be what’s going on here.
RavenPrincess @159, Carl @163 – All the Heralds except possibly Ash were born on Ashyn. We have no idea if they were Surgebinders (or whatever they were called) there or not. It is strongly implied that within their natural lifetime, they went to Honor to offer themselves in the Oathpact to bind the Fused to Braize, and were made Heralds at that time.. This means that the time of harmony between the two races before Odium created the Fused was far, far less than hundreds or thousands of years.
(My bad on the mistaken cite for that epigraph about Malchin)
@152 EvilMonkey –
It’s rooted in the nature of Rlain’s major moments, going back to his request for a spear in WoR. They all seem to revolve around finding or speaking truth, pointing out what people are doing wrong or carrying forward the legacy of his people.
– First, of course, before the Battle of Narak Rlain’s principle role was as a spy among the Alethi for the listeners, focused on determining their true nature and plans.
– Second, his request for a spear. Here Rlain is explicitly pointing out that Kaladin is going against his own claim from WoK that Rlain is in fact a full member of Bridge Four.
– Third, before he leaves to return to Narak, Rlain reveals himself to Kaladin and says that he (Kaladin) is a good man.
– Fourth, there’s his actions at the end of WoR. Rather than stay in Narak and try to protect those listeners who aren’t willing to go along with the Everstorm plan (as Thude does), Rlain returns to the Alethi to warn them that something is very wrong with his people.
(The rest of these all come from Rlain’s section in Oathbringer; it’s Chapter 55, and starts on page 536 in my hardback edition.)
– Fifth, his continued observation of the humans around him after he is no longer spying for anyone. He’s rejected his people’s assumption that humans are deaf to the rhythms, and developed a contrary theory. He knows the difference between Alethi and Vedens, which is more than can be said for his Windrunner companions, who have trouble keeping straight the difference between listeners and the New Singers. He’s also attentive to the individual humans he encounters, and knows enough to be aware that it’s odd that Rock’s son is Vorin, and to have inquired into that history in the first place. All of this makes me think of Renarin’s interest in fabrials and his comment about how horses don’t fit in with the rest of Roshar’s ecosystem.
– Sixth, his reaction to Eth and Yake asking him about the plans of the Fused. His principle thought in that moment is that Eth and Yake (and the Alethi more generally) *simply don’t know* the history of his people or their relationship with the Fused, and he responds by trying to explain that truth.
– Seventh, his affinity for Renarin. Renarin makes a point of speaking to Rlain and including him; that Rlain is closer to Renarin than to any of the other members of Bridge Four makes me think that he might wind up as a squire to him instead of Kaladin or another full Radiant among the bridgemen. That said, the fact that Kaladin is directing a spren to him makes me think that Rlain is at the moment at least a Windrunner squire, or at least that he’s not obviously *not* one. I’m not really sure how this works, and I’m not sure we have clear evidence, so it’s hard to say what we can read into Kaladin’s instructions to Yunfah beyond “Rlain does not presently have an active Nahel bond”.
– And finally, there is his last dialogue in chapter 55 of Oathbringer, after Kaladin tells him to take the day off: Rlain calls Kaladin out (again) for making a relatively empty statement, and then decides to try to explain the full nature of his situation to Kaladin when asked.
So, we’ve got these particular things, which to me point to Rlain having a natural tendency to seek the truth of the world and (where necessary) show it to those in power, along the lines of the WoB we’ve had regarding Truthwatchers. I challenge anyone to go through Rlain’s history and find moments that emphasize protection in the way that these emphasize truth.
Then there’s the more general fact that Rlain is the last of the listeners (as far as he knows), combined with the role that Odium has tried to force Venli into, speaking to the new singers and telling them to carry on the legacy of the listeners (which Odium distorts, of course, but the point is that the new singers do have that basic desire to know and carry forward the legacy of the listeners). As a Truthwatcher, Rlain would be very well suited to travel among the new singers and provide a much truer story of the listeners, and perhaps begin to recruit defectors from among them. This also fits in with the very plausible role of the Truthwatchers as chroniclers and lorekeepers – there *needs* to be a Truthwatcher to learn and spread the true legacy of the listeners; who better than Rlain for that role?
Like I said above, Yunfah’s stated “reasons” for rejecting Rlain amount to a refusal to acknowledge reality, but that doesn’t mean that Yunfah and Rlain will ultimately be able to form a bond. Not because Rlain isn’t honorable, but because Rlain’s honor is not centered on protection.
@36 Adler
Yes, it is possible. We see Navani use it that way in Oathbringer. I suspect that there’s more to it, for instance as others have pointed out regarding tin in Stormlight vs Mistborn. I think that is specifically what Navani’s spanreed connection was taking about.
RE: depression and cures, as several have said, the medicine did not cure me, I do have to take it for the rest of my life. It also won’t stop “situational” depression, when something bad happens to me I get bummed and that is normal; what it controls is that reasonless darkness and dispair.
Kaladin does what many of us have done. We plaster on a false face to make others think we are normal and to hide the shame we feel for the darkness. Now it isn’t just what is inside him, he has more external pressure added and he can’t hide this.
Kaladin believes he deserves this, he just doesn’t want others to see it. That is why the slave marks won’t heal. He is still that slave and he thinks he deserves the suffering and shame. I haven’t a clue how he will get out of this but I don’t think this will remove him from the narrative.
@Gazeboist
really well thought out. Thank you.
I’m actually kind of annoyed I didn’t think of this.
Why do they need half-shards? Their soulcasters could make shields with an aluminum layer that would stop a Shardblade. Hell, why don’t all the Windrunner squires have half-shard or aluminum shields to fight the Fused?
Don’t know if it has been mentioned yet, but we see lighting rods in WoR, Chapter 81. Kaladin mentions them when he meets with Zahel at the lighteyes training grounds.
@172 I don’t know why they aren’t equipped with half-shards, other than the probability that (what’s left of) Jah Keved is refusing to share their weapon’s technology. But also most of the Fused don’t even have shardblades, so it’s a moot point.
As for the aluminum armor, that’s more tricky. You can’t just have an aluminum layer. Metal behind the aluminum will give it structural support, but once a solid shardblow penetrates it (and they are, after all, still big swords) a tear will run like like paper.
What you need is a solid aluminum shield (good vs shards, bad vs everything else), a shield with two solid metal layers (heavy) or a composite material similar to damascus steel but instead it’s layered aluminum. And I don’t know what the material science is behind that, I’d need a real metallurgist.
Regarding the potential folded-composite shard armor, though, the big thing you need is to make sure the folds are twisted to avoid the aforementioned tearing problem as the supporting under-later gets sliced.
A question for the community here: is Kaladin’s depression brought about as a result of chemical imbalance? or was his depression brought on through a string of tragedies and the resulting unprocessed grief, or is there some other root cause?
I know I’ve seen a WoB before, where he has said that Kaladin has S.A.D. (seasonally affected disorder) – but I don’t recall a WoB where he has explicitly stated that he suffers from clinical depression / chemical imbalance. I think Brandon has been deliberately careful here. Depression is a very real thing; however, it can be caused by many different things and is experienced differently for every individual. If its primary cause is grief, then Kaladin can likely climb out of the spiral and climb out the other side of it through processing it properly, and getting good counselling. If it is a chemical imbalance, I think it needs to be handled entirely differently – counselling is only part of the management strategy.
As an aside: I am SO GLAD this is in the book. This topic needs to be talked about more.
@175 what’s a WoB? He had it as a child too, especially during the weepings when Tien would cheer him up. It was only exacerbated by the events that followed. That’s why I’m leaning towards a management solution – it seems not to be something acquired like ptsd but rather innate and, well, pretty chronic – like it’s always been a part of him.
xxviolaxx @176: (As a former violist, I approve of your screenname.) “WoB” = “Word of Brandon”, a variant of “Word of God” (do not click that link!).
@@@@@168. Gazeboist
This is a brilliant theory and I really hope it’s true. Rlain squiring through Renarin makes more sense too, as they would both have a connection to the ‘enemy’ side – Rlain through heritage and Renarin through his Enlightened spren, and would be a perfect team to start a reconciliation between singers and humans.
Maybe because aluminium would interfere with their Surges. Shardplate also seems to interfere with Lashings. Does that mean it is made of aluminium spren?
@114 Kefka
That reflects my feeling exactly! I really thought that despite his external protestation that is really what he wanted and needed external push to actually do it, like a permission as a way to justify it.
I can see a big problem with human shard proof armour. It would be way too heavy and bulky. Real Shard Plate is too heavy and also locks up when damaged. Stormlight powers it and allows the user carry the weight. Armour made from thick aluminum layered over another heavy metal would need superhuman strength to use.
Have we seen any visions that showed a Windrunner wearing Plate? They mostly fight in the sky, maybe they have something similar to what was shown floating around Jashna, not something they actually wear like ground infantry would.
Carl@172:
The Fused aren’t using any sharblades yet, nor did we see them let loose with Division, so I am not sure what use aluminum shields would be against them. Lugging around a shield would also hinder Windrunners flying capabilities, which are more important for their survival.
I agree with you about the half-shards, though – an aluminum-covered shield would have worked as well or better, given that they could only withstand a couple of shardblade strikes anyway. I guess that nobody thought about it? Or, maybe the soulcasters that can produce aluminum are rare and the king of Jah-Keved didn’t have any? Though Shallan’s aluminum chain wasn’t even that expensive, so who knows?
Generally, if you were a noble without shards, having an aluminum-covered armor would have been beneficial for several reasons – protection against rust, for instance, but limited protection against shardblades would have been huge. And it wouldn’t have made the armor _that_ much heavier either. So, I dunno.
Maybe there is some technical problem – maybe the Soulcasting ardents can’t transform just one layer of something? Like, purely aluminum armor wouldn’t provide enough protection against normal weapons, so I imagined them covering a steel armor with a layer of wax and then transforming the wax into aluminum. Maybe it is impossible with just the device soulcasters? Still doesn’t explain the lack shields, though – they could have just nailed the aluminum covers on those. But I fully expect the Fused to extensively use aluminum against the Radiants, once enough Transformation ones get over from Braize.
Nathan w @161:
I don’t see Kaladin being involved in the embassy to Lasting Integrity. It seems like the honorspren are still stuck on the Recreance victims from among their people. Kaladin nearly succombed to Moash and created yet another deadeye. No, IMHO the logical argument to convince them could only be a demonstration that there is hope for the deadeyes that only humans can provide. I.e. the partial revival of Mayalaran. Also, it would be really disappointing if Kaladin left Urithiru just as his family arrived there and didn’t interact with them for the rest of the book.
Concerning bonds with the singers – I’d generally expect the spren that are closer to Cultivation to be more open to such experiments, like their are more open to return of Radiance in general. And it would be nice if at least a couple of Bridge Four folks joined other Orders. I still hope that Rlain and Rock will do so. Kinda disappointed that Sigzil didn’t become a Truthwatcher or an Elsecaller.
I don’t think that Renarin can have any squires, though – even ifnormal Truthwatchers can. Ditto and even more so Lift versus normal Edgedancers.
@182 Isilel. I do not think we are going to see any Maya revival until a very long time… Sanderson is going for the long run with this one, he often commented on how he wanted to feel organic, to happen slowly which pretty much invalidates the idea Adolin would show-off revived Maya to convinced the Honorsprens. Also, all in-world characters, including Adolin, believe it is impossible, so whatever happened with Maya, back in OB, Adolin has not told anyone nor does he think it means anything specific. Adolin downright acknowledges there is nothing he could do to undo what was done to Maya, he can only try to be respectful with her and to use her for good causes.
I thus see no logical reason why Adolin would get send to Lasting Integrity to perform a “revival” they do not even think is possible, and even if they did think it was possible, they have no idea how to complete. And even if Adolin had revived Maya in the one year gap (which we saw he didn’t), then there is no telling it can be reproduced on other sprens, hence it isn’t much of a bargaining tool. Maya is not even a Honospren.
There are a lot of other reasons why Adolin/Shallan gets sent and not Kaladin other than Maya. They are Alethi royalty, Adolin is in-line for two thrones, they are more expendables (sad but true), Shallan is good at negotiating and can manipulate Shadesmar, etc. In fact, based on what we have read so far, I don’t think anyone knows about Maya anyway and it may be Adolin had no additional manifestation of her.
My theory is Kaladin will be the key to convince the Honorsprens even if he is not going on the mission. My other theory is no way they are sending a Shardbearer as most Honorsprens find them offensive. Hence, I think one of the reasons Adolin gets sent is to show “goodwill” by agreeing to unbind Maya. One of the bargaining chip they have is to agree to unbind all dead-sprens. I also think Dalinar will want Adolin to bond a Honorspren to take over Kaladin’s former tasks.
This would mirror Kaladin wanting Yunfah to bond Rlain. Sanderson likes mirrors. This could make Rlain Dalinar’s side-kick in the third arc now we know it isn’t Szeth.
So the whole Maya thing, like everything, will go seriously downhill before it progresses, IMHO.
@Isilel 182
It still bothers me that the Recreance happened without at least some spren being complicit in the proceedings. There must be something there, right? So if over the course of the book Maya wakes up more then maybe we can get the spren side of the story from one who died in it. In which case it would make sense for Adolin to make the trip to Lasting Integrity. It would be his mission, Shallan would just be the sherpa for the CR. That sounds crazy cool and I now very much want it to be the case.
150. Gazeboist
Love reading what you said. And I gotta say, the way you write makes it very easy to read: matter-of-fact, non-bias and not too emotionally involved, if that makes sense.
@184. Evil. I think Adolin likely being the “Crowned Prince in becoming of Urithiru” is sufficient reason enough for Lasting Integrity to be his mission with Shallan acting as a sherpa.
I remain set in my thoughts Maya will not have a role to play here since no one knows about Maya nor think a revival is the end game. Shallan does not seem to think of Adolin as a “proto-knight” and it seems she would have commented on this in their time together or at least mentally thought of how Adolin was progressing as the knight of a dead-Blade.
So while I think we will eventually get Maya’s thoughts on “before”, I do not expect those until book 5. RoW, I suspect, will be the book where Dalinar pushes Adolin to become a Radiant because the future King of Urithiru needs to be one (and Renarin is no King material), but it fails. We see the burgeoning of the Radiants thinking along those lines with Kaladin wanting Rlain to become a Windrunner.
Hence, I think the whole mission will go to Adolin for all of those reasons: because he is Dalinar’s heir, because Dalinar wants him to take over the Windrunners, because Adolin wants to please his father and still wants his approval. Shallan co-leads it because she is super useful and Adolin’s wife.
I know some readers expect Adolin to walk into Lasting Integrity, to show Maya revived or to revive her on the spot, and to see all Honorspren thinking it is amazing their kin can be saved thus massively going to bond new Radiants, but I do not think this is how it will happen. I could be wrong, but I sincerely doubt this is how it will happen nor do I think RoW is the book for it.
I however agree this whole narrative sounds super cool, even if I am dead wrong with my theories, it sounds crazy cool nonetheless
Edit. Even if Adolin revives Maya, then what? The Honorspren siblings are still being swinged around in the physical realm. There are 0 proof other dead-eyes can be revived. So it changes nothing. What changes something is all Shardbearers unbinding their dead-eyes starting with Adolin.
Gepeto @183, 186:
I know your ideas about how Adolin’s relationship with Maya might proceed – but I completely disagree with them, sorry. I don’t find the notion of it just happening as a surprise, without Adolin’s active contribution, rewarding. To me, if Adolin hasn’t done anything to try to help her during the gap, then he doesn’t deserve to be the one to restore her. I am not saying that she is completely revived as of early RoW, but IMHO there would be signs that she isn’t just a deadeye anymore.
And Chapter 9, with it’s casual mention of Navani’s visits to Shadesmar via the Oathgate to interview spren, shows both one of the ways for Adolin to have further developped his connection to Maya, and for others to have noticed her differences from her brethren.
P.S. Additionally given that Dalinar now routinely opens perpendicularities, Adolin dismissing his interactions with Maya at Thaylenah as his imagination, like you suggested previously, wouldn’t hold water either. He’d know that something is going on with her, unless he willfully refused to remember the forgotten and listen to the ignored…
It also seems logical to me that if one dead-eye can be revived, then there is hope for all of them, however slim. No matter which spren they are. I know that you wish for Maya’s restoration to be unique and irreproducible – for me it would just make this whole sub-plot pointless. But then, I fully expect Taln to eventually join the Stonewards via bond with and resurrection of Oathbringer the blade.
Finally, I don’t think that Adolin is a heir to Urithiru (IMHO, Dalinar’s kingship is non-hereditary), or that sending him in person to the honorspren to beg for a bond would be a compelling argument for why they should bond again. Sure, he does have some political clout as both Dalinar’s son and a Highprince of Alethkar-in-exile. Neither would assuage honorsprens’ Recreance-fuelled misgivings, though. Signs of Maya’s resuscitation might – or so would our protagonists think, at least. Syl’s explanation in this very chapter strongly suggests such a notion. The reality is going to be more complex, I am sure.
EvilMonkey @184:
Yes, that’s how I see it. Except, I don’t expect Mayalaran to fully recover until the climax of Adolin’s and Shallan’s subplot in RoW, and to regain her memory enough to give us the involved spren side on the Recreance until book 5.
goddessimho @181: In Dalinar’s vision with the two armored Radiants in TWoK, one was a Windrunner. He had blue (the Windrunner color) glowing Plate and arrived in the way that Windrunners using Lashings do (crashing down out of the sky).
The other had amber glowing Plate, which we learn in Oathbringer is the Stonewards’ color. She healed Dalinar and the woman in the vision, but that was apparently using a fabrial she carried.
@177 bad_platypus (As a current violinist, my screenname makes little sense now but preceded musical inclinations) Thanks for the info! Couldn’t help myself.
@@@@@ Isilel and Gepeto
By the way initiation into the Knights Radiant is performed there is no way Adolin can be Dalinar’s heir. Dalinar may have some input but Stormfather has final say on who he bonds should Dalinar die or fail. And if Adolin isn’t a Bondsmith squire by now I’m not sure he’ll ever be. So that’s out as a reason for him to go to the Honorspren. He could be Dalinar’s chosen ambassador for a couple reasons. One, Dalinar could be trying to give his son a purpose as he finds little use for non-powered combatants in this particular war. Two, Dalinar’s bestseller is revealed and Adolin takes a mission so he can get space to think. Third, Maya’s partial revival. The first is unlikely for not everyone can or should be KR (Shardbearers cannot hold ground). The second could work. Shallan could even be the one who suggests that course of action. It is after all, the way she dealt with Jasnah.
As for the third possibility my rational is as follows. No Honorspren other than Syl actually lived through the Recreance AFAIK. They were all born afterwards and imbued with the Stormfather’s particular prejudices. Humans killed his children, Humans have lost all honor, full stop. But if there’s more to the Recreance, if spren were complicit, then a dead eye would know presumably know it. Who else is more likely to remember than the order whose first order-specific oath is to remember the forgotten? So say Maya woke, not all the way, not enough to grant powers but enough to pass on some important information to Adolin or Syl, something the leaders of Lasting Integrity would find vastly important, something they would not believe from any source other than the spren who knew. Adolin is going. Either as Maya’s transport or as a clear cut example that humans have not lost all honor, he’s going. This is my favorite possibility of the 3 for a few reasons but the main one is that it gives Adolin real agency; he’s not just a helpful appendage anymore.
I will admit that the possibility she represents, of deadeyes all returning, never entered into my calculations but would be a sweetener to the deal. That possibility could also swing the ashspren into real support of the coalition. That shoe probably doesn’t drop until book 5 but the seeds could be started here. I’m not sure the process can be replicated in other deadeyes and I’m not sure if it matters to me either way. I’ll RAFO if the direction Brandon takes this narrative stream appeals to me.
I will note however that I think Shardbearers breaking bonds to dead blades now is a supremely awful idea. Back when those blades were used to kill humans and aggrandize tyranny it would have been a great idea and one that would somewhat prove humanity’s honor. But now? When those weapons will be put to use for their true intended purpose? I don’t see any deadeyes being upset about the opportunity to be wielded in service to fight off a Desolation. Maya was certainly eager to kill that Thunderclast in Thaylen City. And maybe that’s a component in the revival of all those fallen spren. The chance to serve again, a chance for their millenniums of pain to be redeemed. They saw no reason to wake for a bunch of honorless power-hungry men. They will find purpose again in the fight against their ancient enemies.
@@@@@179, birgit:
Aluminum itself is extremely light as metals go. The thing that’s unfortunate is that Roshar has very little physical science, as far as I can tell, so they couldn’t alloy it to make tough alloys, and pure aluminum is very soft.
My idea was to make (for instance) an armor piece out of wood, soulcast it to iron or something, then soulcast a thin layer of aluminum on top of it out of air (we see Jasnah soulcast air into bronze), then soulcast a thin protective layer of iron on top of the thin aluminum coating to avoid the soft metal just wearing away from friction with ordinary objects. It’s an analogy to vacuum sputtering of aluminum, something I’ve actually done when I was doing electron microscopy.
Now that I write that, a really, really skilled Soulcaster might be able to directly transmute a layer or series of threads of aluminum inside of some normal metal armor, making it Lashing and Shardblade resistant without changing its other characteristics very much, aside from being a little lighter. You’re right, @@@@@goddessimho, that it might be too heavy for a Windrunner to wear while flying, especially since it would resist lashings, but maybe for others, say a Stoneward squire, or just a Shardbearer with Blade but not Plate? Or to make a Shardblade-blocker shield for someone who has “dead” Plate?
We know the Fused have at least one Shardblade, Eshonai’s. I’m sure they’ve gathered more by now.
@@@@@190, EvilMonkey,
Heir to the throne, not to the Bondsmith role. There’s no special reason they should be the same thing just because Dalinar is both. And the comment was the Adolin is “in line for” the Alethi throne. To be exact, he is apparently now second in line after Gavinor. Adolin is presumably waiting with bated breath for Gavinor to grow up and have kids, since he really doesn’t want it.
Is it possible to make aluminium with Soulcasting if it resists magic? If that doesn’t work they might lack the technology to make aluminium shields.
@@@@@ Carl
There is no technical reason why Adolin couldn’t be the Heir of the Kingdom Urithiru. But practically? I can’t see it working. It’s the city of Radiance. If I’m a Knight there is no way I recognize the authority of one who has never held a Nahel bond. If I’m a king with no powers there’s no way I’m taking the job considering that any Bondsmith in attendance will be able to usurp or countermand any order I might give. Once the Sibling gets a Bondsmith I wouldn’t even be able to handle the administrative processes of the city. Adolin isn’t an heir to anyone right now. He’s the Kholin highprince and 3rd in line for Alethkar-in-Exile.
@187 Isilel. I do not agree Adolin should have made progress with Maya or else be deemed unworthy of a bond. To make progress would first require him to acknowledge progress is possible which he hasn’t done yet. As far as Adolin is concerned, there is nothing he can do more for Maya: he acknowledged as much in OB. He acknowledged there was nothing he could do for her besides trying to use her wisely. I do not think he would suddenly believe he can do more, revive Maya or bring the dead back to life without events pushing him towards this direction.
While the narrative states Navani has gone to Shadesmar, it does not say Adolin did. He hated the place the last time he went, he nearly died: I can’t see him being keen to go back. Even if he did go back for a few moments, there are no reasons to believe Maya behaved in any other way than a mindless dead-eye. She only showed signs of life whenever Adolin gets in danger or is wounded.
Also, if one dead-eye can be revived, then yes, the logical conclusion is all of them can, except if they are not entirely sure how Maya got to be revived in the first place. The problem is thus reproducing the string of events than led to Adolin making the tiniest progress he made with Maya. There is no guarantee of success nor is there any assurance other dead-eyes will get revived. Even if other Shardbearers started to talk to their Blades and went to meet them in Shadesmar, there are no guarantee this would result in a revival nor to forget our heroes simply do not have the time to wait for other Shardbearers to reproduce what Adolin has no idea he has done. They need those Windrunners right now. So even if Maya is all revived and everyone thinks of Adolin as the knight of a former dead-eye (which I think would have come out in Shallan’s viewpoints), it still wouldn’t give them reassurance others will follow in a timely manner nor is it much of a bargaining chip.
Brandon also said he meant for this arc to progress slowly and to develop naturally. To me, this implies Adolin will make tiny baby steps towards Maya and the arc may not get a resolution until quite some time. I certainly expect Lasting Integrity to be too early or even the climax of RoW. Hence, I do not think Maya gets revived in RoW. Or even book 5. I think in RoW Adolin will perhaps become more aware of what is happening with Maya, but him rapidly voicing out three oaths in a rapid succession in order to fully revive Maya would be, IMHO, lack-luster. Adolin’s arc is one of soul-searching, it is one of trying to find out who he wants to be and I cannot see him doing much with Maya until he figures out he does not want to walk on his father’s footsteps. And that will not be concluded in RoW anymore than Kaladin’s arc was not concluded in OB.
As for Dalinar, Sanderson mentioned Dalinar was a monarchist, and being a monarchist implies he certainly will look into ways to pass down his legacy. He is king now, he will want an heir. Adolin is the one he has been grooming since childhood to be a Highprince and potentially a king. I thus think it is likely Dalinar will want Adolin to be his heir and, for this to happen, will want him to become a Radiant. I think what Kaladin is doing with Yunfah will mirror what Dalinar will attempt to do with Adolinm but that’s just speculation.
Still, I do not think Dalinar would send Adolin to Lasting Integrity to beg for a bond. I think he will send Adolin to negotiate, he will use promises of freeing the dead-Blades by having the bearers break their bonds (Adolin the first) and Adolin will have a secret additional mission to try to convince a spren to bond him. Or it will heavily suggest he does so, but that will not be the bargaining chip. The bargaining chip would be freeing the dead-eyes and stop using them. Reviving them, even if Maya suddenly comes back to life, will not help. They can’t know if all of them can be revived or if even one additional one can be revived. They don’t know if Honorsprens can be revived and it certainly won’t prove the new Radiants will not break their oaths.
All of this is why I believe the leverage will be unbinding the Shardblades, not Maya since I do not believe Maya will be revived or is known to be possibly revived nor that Adolin told anyone about the 7 seconds.
@190 EvilMonkey. How do we know the King of Urithiru has to be a Bondsmith? As far as we know, there never was a King in Urithiru. There are no rules the next King has to be a Bondsmith and it would impractical if this were true for by the time Dalinar dies, there might be a gap before a new Bondsmith is made. The city cannot be left without a King, Dalinar will not tolerate the possibility of his new kingdom not having a direct line of inheritance.
This being said, Adolin does not need to be the Crowned Prince to go, simply being Dalinar’s son is, IMHO, enough. He is royalty. He can represent his father, which is more than enough for him to go, but knowing Dalinar, if he sends Adolin, he’ll have another purpose to do so. Dalinar is a monarchist, he believes in dynasty, he will want the next king to be his son, but I agree his son would need to be a Radiant.
While I could see Adolin wanting to time off after hearing his father’s book, I can’t think he would pick Shadesmar as his choice place to go. Adolin is afraid of Shadesmar: I do not think he is going there willingly.
As for Maya, I think you are too hasty in thinking she has developed a conscience enough to pass down information. Sanderson mentioned the revival of a dead-eye was incredibly difficult and near impossible. He was adamant all in-world characters thought it was impossible. I thus feel if Maya suddenly is partially awakened, enough that other character acknowledged she is partially revived or that is the end-game for Adolin, then that would defy the fact it was supposed to be impossible.
More needs to happen for Adolin to progress with Maya. I fully expect a status quo and potentially a regression in the sense Maya will not have appeared to Adolin faster again and will have stopped to send impressions to him. There is/was something, but that something will need a lot more to grow and the first thing it will need will be Adolin acknowledging he wants to be Maya’s knight. That will take some time.
As far as we can tell, one of the problems all sprens have with the humans is the fact some of them carry dead-Blades and swing them around. For one Ico who agrees it is practical and is not angry at the idea, there are countless of others horrified at seeing humans manhandled corpses. Think of how we would feel if we saw people take dead bodies and swing them around for an advantage in a battle. That would be awful! Not to forget desacralizing a body is considered a capital crime. For the sprens, what the Shardbeares do is exactly it.
I have no doubt part of the reasons many sprens are reluctant to bond more humans is linked to the unease next to the Shardbearers. Hence, to convince them of mankind’s goodwill, I do think agreeing to no longer use their kind’s corpses is a solid alternative. Yes, they would lose the Shardbearers, but as we could see, the Shardbearers are not fighting the war, the Radiants are. The need for more Radiants will, and by far, surpass the usefulness of the Shardbearers.
I can definitely see Dalinar wanting to make the trade. He’d lose the Shardbearers, but if he gains one thousand Radiants in exchange, then it will be worth it. And, in the end, he needs Radiants: he has little use for Shardbearers anymore.
My thoughts are thus, the Shardbearers will be the leverage Dalinar will try to use to sweeten the deal. Adolin gets send as a representative as a former Shardbearer proving others will be willing to do what he did. What Adolin thought Maya felt will not weight much in the balance: Dalinar is a very practical man. He knows when to press an advantage and he is not one to rush after goose hunts. He’ll want to strike a deal and he’ll be sure he is offering something tangible in return not some vague promised one dead-eye might be revived because his son swore she came to him in less than 10 seconds.
Even if Adolin did tell other people, who would believe him? Have we thought of the fact others may not believe him when he claims Maya told him her name and appeared in less than 10 seconds? Renarin would readily point out how wounded Adolin was and insist he might have been delusional.
When put in front of the impossible, most people will deny it happened until they get more tangible proofs and what Adolin has is not super tangible at the moment.
@191 Carl. I agree. Adolin most certainly is in-line for both thrones. This is how Dalinar thinks: children inherit from their parents.
@193 EvilMonkey: Which is why Dalinar will want Adolin to become a knight. Adolin would not be the direct heir, right now, but Dalinar will want him to be. All he needs is to attract a spren. This is how Dalinar would think.
@EvilMonkey 190:
I just checked OB chapter 108, which talks about the history of the Honorspren as relates to the Recreance. Syl was the only survivor among the Stormfather’s pre-Recreance children, but it’s not stated that all Honorspren created by Honor (or descended from those created by Honor) were destroyed in the Recreance. What I could find about the effects of the Recreance based on cites on Coppermind is all pretty vague, but I do not believe it’s the case that literally all Honor-descended Honorspren were destroyed at that time.
@191, 194:
Adolin explicitly rejected the throne of Alethkar when it was offered to him; that’s the whole reason Jasnah is queen now. I think it’s safe to say that he has removed himself from the line of succession (though I believe he is technically Highprince Kholin, or Dalinar’s heir to that title). Like I said last week, I think Dalinar’s need for a successor is something he’s ultimately going to have to reckon with, though probably not in this book, which I expect to be focused on the failures of his predecessors. I sincerely doubt that Adolin will ultimately be Dalinar’s successor; he’s got his own arc to follow that really has very little to do with Dalinar’s leadership-focused story.
@195 Gaz. Oh, Adolin rejected one throne, but I doubt Dalinar expects him to keep on dodging responsibility.
We have to think as Dalinar would think. Dalinar strongly believes in the monarchy and will want his son to inherit his throne. He will not want to risk the throne falling out on hands outside of his direct family. Given his personal line of beliefs, he will readily believe Adolin needs to step-up and be ready to take this throne. Let’s remember Dalinar only reluctantly agreed to let Jasnah take the Alethi crown: now the Alethi line of inheritance is secure, he will work towards securing the Urithiru line of inheritance.
Hence, while Adolin certainly does not want it and will likely reject it, Dalinar is likely not to think in the same terms. This is why I do foresee Dalinar wanting to keep on pushing Adolin towards this path just as I see Adolin trying to conform because of the bad blood he raised when he murdered Sadeas.
The whole “son is struggling to walk into his father’s footstep” is a theme in this book, first with Kaladin, and potentially with Adolin.
Ultimately, I agree Adolin will not follow this path, but neither he nor Dalinar realizes this, at the moment. I agree Adolin’s path is “something else”, but Dalinar is not aware of this and he will keep on wanting to shape his son as he thinks is best.
Adolin has shown that he can resist the Blackthorn if he deems it necessary. So if Dalinar is going to try to shoehorn Adolin into this role despite being unbonded he’s going to be mighty disappointed. And this is him before the book comes out. It’s possible (albeit unlikely) that Adolin breaks from his father completely upon hearing the news. But I don’t think Dalinar is stupid enough to try to force heirdom on Adolin for his current throne. And really until and unless Adolin gets a bond he’s technically outside Dalinar’s chain of command, though his wife is not.
As to why the ruler of Urithiru must be a Bondsmith, it’s the only Order the majority of Knights will listen to. Remember there’s 9 other Orders, most of which do not get along with each other. Windrunners vs Skybreakers for example. Bondsmiths are going to be above all that bickering, it’s literally a part of their Oaths. And that’s just the human component. The spren themselves have issues with each other. Honorspren don’t like Cryptics, Cryptics worry about Ashspren, Ashspren are cantankerous towards everyone, Highspren have actually went to war with the Honorspren. About the only thing they agree on is Stormfather is boss hog, and that only nominally. At any rate Bondsmith is the only Order everyone can agree will be focused on Unity of purpose without undue bias. No other Order will lead as well. Again, technically speaking there’s no reason for anyone to be barred from KR leadership. Practically and traditionally it’s the Bondsmiths.
@197 EvilMonkey. Knights Radiants might have been structured differently than a typical kingdom and it is possible the king does not need to be a Bondsmith. It would impractical if it were the case since they only have one Bondsmith at the moment, they are never guaranteed to have a back-up Bondsmith at all point in time, relying on the most evasive order of all that may not always have a representative would not be a risk Dalinar will take. There are also no indications a Bondsmith is the sole candidate all other orders would listen just as it is possible the old knights had no king. Dalinar is probably establishing the command structure as he thinks is best and given his background, he establishes a firm, authoritative King because this is what he believes in. There are no indications former knights had a King such as Dalinar hence Dalinar is certainly not bond by ancient rules. He is bond by what he believes is best and Dalinar believes in monarchies with direct heirs.
Dalinar will thus not want the line of succession not to be firmly established because this is what he believes in. He will not accept his successor might be someone he has never met before, he is unable to groom, and may not even be there on the day he dies. Dalinar, much like Gavilar, believes in dynasties. He believes the kingdom needs to have a secure line of inheritance, a direct heir to defer to if he shall die. He also believes this heir has to be taken from his own line. It will be out of the question to raise someone who is not his son to the task. He is unlikely to even consider it because such as his beliefs.
Adolin is Dalinar’s heir and him rejecting the Alethi throne changes nothing to this fact. Dalinar might have accepted to crown Jasnah instead of Adolin, he will not accept Adolin to shed on his other duties because this is what Dalinar believes in. So while yes, Adolin “resisted” Dalinar on the Alethi throne, he caved in to become the Highprince, another function he did not want. Dalinar has also been grooming Adolin for leadership for years, he will not settle on an unknown future potential Bondsmith that may or may not be made before his death. This would be contrary to what Dalinar believes.
All of this is why I do not think Adolin rejecting one throne will change much to Dalinar”s eyes. He still is his eldest son, the one he has chosen to take over his work. Renarin is not suitable for the task due to his limitations when it comes to social interactions. Dalinar understands and accepts this. Adolin has always been the one he intended for leadership. He will want him to become a Radiant and much like Kaladin with Rlain, he might be… inappropriate in pushing for this to happen.
Also, Adolin will never be away from Dalinar’s chain of command merely for the fact he is his son. So far, it has been obvious Adolin still reported to Dalinar will all the talk of “what will Dalinar think”. Dalinar also was the one to receive the report, so by all means, yes, Adolin, even if not a Radiant, still defers and obeys to King Dalinar.
I thus believe Dalinar still considers Adolin his heir, will want him to become a Radiant, and will want to establish a clear line of inheritance. He will not accept the idea his kingdom might be fought over if he dies. This is exactly what he tells Gavilar: “The Sunmaker’s kingdom failed apart because the Sunmaker would not name a direct heir”. Dalinar will not make this mistake, he will not let the position be left open, he will not give it to some random yet undiscovered Bondsmith, he will pick the son he has always meant to succeed him, whether he wants it or not, since Dalinar does not believe what one wants matters much. Duties is greater than want.
@175 MarkHD
There is a WoB that confirms Kaladin has chemical depression:
There is also this interesting WOB where he talks about whether depression and other mental illnesses are “a feature or a bug” that needs to be healed:
It was really rough to read about Kaladin being relieved of combat duty here. To him it probably feels like the only things that give his life any meaning, or bring him any small amount of happiness or peace (protecting people and flying), are being taken away. I am not sure how he is going to get out of this hole. Roshar has no therapists or ways of dealing with mental disorders, whether chemical or trauma-induced. I’m sure his friends would be happy to talk to him if he would open up to them, but I’m not sure they would have the understanding of his particular situation to help in a real concrete way. The answers will need to come from within him but it’s so hard when you’re trapped in a pit of darkness and negativity.
On a practical level, I assume his squires will be grounded at Urithiru with him. They will lose access to stormlight if they leave. That’s got to be a bummer for all of them.
Gepeto, I think you dismiss Renarin too easily as heir for Dalinar. He is changing and growing, he is barely past being a teenager. I also doubt any non-Radiant would be considered for king in Urithiru. I strongly believe that his “corrupted” spren will turn out to be an advantage once the old Listeners are found (I really believe they will show up) and possibly even some of the Fused switch sides just as some of the Radiants have. I can see him being a much bigger player in future books.
The jacket blurb mentions an envoy that Adolin and Shallan are bringing to the Honor Spren. I don’t think that’s Kaladin because I thought the spren want to just capture Syl and take her from him. Or maybe that makes him more likely, I just don’t know.
Adolin IS the Kholen High Prince. Queen Regent Jashna, holds the throne (in exile) for Crown Prince Gavinar. Even if Jashna had a child herself that child would not become the heir.
Adolin is in charge of the Alethi human army under Queen Jashna, at least if things still work like they did on the Shattered Plains. Dalinar leads the Radiants and I’m guessing Adolin reports to him as a sub-commander in the war the same way Queen Fen’s top general would. I’m not sure what human soldiers can really do in this war other than die fighting so civilians can run and maybe escape.
@200. Goddess. I think the envoy merely means a group of people such as a bunch of Windrunners and soldiers, not someone specific.
I think while Renarin is growing, he still isn’t the one Dalinar has picked for inheritance. As I said above, we have to think of it, in the same manner, Dalinar would view it. Would Dalinar think Renarin is King material? Who would he want to succeed him? Renarin or Adolin? I agree the next king would need to be a Radiant which is why I think Dalinar will pressure Adolin to become one. If Kaladin can push Rlain towards a bond, Dalinar can certainly do the same with his son.
Who is in charge of whom is hard to tell at this point in time. I however noted Adolin seemed to refer to Dalinar as the one in charge for him and Dalinar was the one to read his report.
I’m rereading Oathbringer and I’m at the part where SF is explaining to Dalinar about the powers he will have access to as he grows in Radiance. If one listens to his power set it seems incredibly inconceivable to me that anyone other than a Bondsmith could ever seek to lead the KR. The Stormfather called him and those of his Order Binders of Gods. Despite however Dalinar may feel about dynastic rule it should be exceedingly clear to him that his feelings won’t be a factor. If he wishes for a successor he’s going to have to take up a squire. He may wish for Adolin to achieve Radiance but Radiance isn’t going to be enough to make him a successor. Adolin must become a Bondsmith. If that’s his path then the Maya storyline is a waste of time.
BTW, Adolin isn’t the type to shirk his duties and I’m sure Dalinar has some for him. I just don’t think Prince of Urithiru is one of them. Highmarshal of non-powered troops? Sure. Shallan’s personal bodyguard? Again a good possibility. Ambassador for the Radiance? He could do that. I wish for him to gain some powers at least but even if he never gets a level up he’s far from useless. Thing is, I wouldn’t have chosen him of all people to go on the mission to Lasting Integrity, Shallan either considering how Honorspren feel about Cryptics. The only thing that makes sense to me involves Mayalaren and her special relationship with our special highprince. But as always YMMV. We’ll see come November.
@202 Evil. I think it is likely Dalinar is making up the rules as he goes. For Dalinar to agree his successor needs to be another Bondsmith would require him to accept he may not know his successor, he may not choose him and there may be a time where there is successor. What if there is no Bondsmith? What if it takes 5 years for another Bondsmith to be made? Will Urithiru be left without a King for that long?
Dalinar is not the man to chance it. So I do not agree Dalinar’s successor absolutely needs to be a Bondsmith. A Radiant, yes, but not necessarily a Bondsmith. This is how Dalinar would think of it, I think.
I think there are ample reasons why Adolin gets send if we put ourselves within Dalinar’s perspective. Dalinar thinks of Adolin as a deeply honorable individual who will walk on this footstep. He probably sees him as a candidate for one of the honor aligned orders and he probably blames his refusal to acknowledge his guilt with Sadeas as the reason why he hasn’t progressed. This is Dalinar we are talking of. He is not perfect, his perceptions are not always accurate. Coming from his viewpoint, Adolin is a perfectly logical choice even if, coming from our perspectives, he is not.
So yes, coming from him, Adolin makes a lot of sense. Shallan is his wife, so wherever he goes, she goes. And she’s the only one who can manipulate Shadesmar apart from Jasnah. We have a different perspective because we know more than Dalinar, we know Adolin is not great for this task, so we are looking for other reasons when the real reason is: “Would Dalinar think Adolin is the best candidate for this?”. The answer to this question, I believe, is yes. Especially if releasing the dead-Blades is part of the deal.
Hence, there are a lot of reasons other than Maya, better than Maya because for Maya to be the reason would require Maya to have progressed, Adolin to have acknowledged what is happening, and for others to actually believe him. Hence, I think it is way too soon in the story for Maya to be a reason, to be recognized, and for Adolin to agree he is reviving her or, at the very least, it is possible to do so.
I agree we’ll see come November, but I am pretty dead sure Maya has nothing to do with Adolin being sent. Will stuff happen with Maya? Of course, but doubt she is getting revived in RoW, I doubt anyone even knows about what happened with Maya in OB.
The impossible demands concrete, solid proofs to become possible. No one is going to believe it is possible until it becomes possible and we aren’t there yet. If we were there yet, it would have come out already and I doubt Sanderson has made Maya happened during the one year gap. It is clear nothing really important happened in the one year gap, that was the whole purpose of it in the first place.
OK, I know some readers believe Maya is being revived and other in-world characters will readily agree this is happening. My point all along is, when people believe something to be impossible, the impossible will never be their foregone conclusion. Think of it as trying to convince an atheist there are external manifestations of God’s Existence. The atheist will never agree this is the case and the atheist foregone conclusions will always be to explain the phenomenon through other means than God’s Existence because the atheist fundamentally does not believe God is possible. The same applies with Maya: no one believes it is possible so even if placed in front of what happened to Adolin, they are far more likely to explain it through others means than the impossible happening, including Adolin himself.
So what are the signs Maya is being revived?
Adolin: “My Blade attacked a Fused to protect me in Shadesmar”.
Others: “Oh Adolin, how do you know this isn’t the typical behavior of all dead-Blades when their Shardbearers get attacked in Shadesmar? As far as we know, this may be normal. All dead-eyes might have an innate drive to protect their bearer. After all, you are the first one to experience it. We cannot draw conclusions based on one data point.”.
Adolin: “My Blade told me her name. It felt like a shift in the wind.”
Others: “Oh Adolin, you thought you heard a name in a breeze of wind in the middle of a battlefield. It didn’t come from the Blade, that was just your imagination, but it is very noble of you to finally give it a name.”.
Adolin: “No, it came from the Blade.”
Others: “You think it does, but how can you be sure? Did you hear anything else?”.
Adolin: “No, but…”
Others: “There you go.”.
Adolin: “My Blade appeared to me in seven seconds.”.
Others: “Oh Adolin, you had just taken one severe blow, you probably hit your head, you were wounded and your body was likely going into shock. You miscounted. You missed three heartbeats which wouldn’t be surprising given the condition you were in.”
Adolin: “No, I am pretty sure it was seven seconds”.
Others: “You cannot be sure, you were too wounded, Renarin saw you, you could barely stand, and has it happened again?”.
Adolin: “No, but…”
Others: “There you go”.
Hence, my point is all evidence Adolin has of Maya maybe coming back to life can be easily disparaged by other people especially since they do not believe it is possible.
The impossible never is the logical explanation to anything. A lot of water will need to run under the bridge before other people acknowledge Maya can be revived and the Shadesmar trip for sure happens way too fast.
@203 Gepeto
I think Dalinar’s 5th Ideal is going to involve selecting and training a proper successor. It’s the natural conclusion to his leadership arc, it flows from the series’ ongoing questioning of hereditary monarchy, it follows along with the (admittedly vague) picture we’ve been shown thus far of 4th and 5th Ideals, and it’s a way that squires make sense for the otherwise uniquely small Bondsmiths. I also sincerely doubt that this book is going to involve that succession question in any serious way; Dalinar’s arc this book seems much more focused on his past and the past of the Alethi in general. We see that in Navani’s prologue, showing us what sort of person Gavilar really was (something that Dalinar has been unwilling to acknowledge since WoK), and we see it in the Mink’s needling of Dalinar over the wars in Herdaz that he participated in. Maybe he’s currently thinking of Adolin as a potential successor, but I doubt it’s a major focus of his at the moment.
EvilMonkey:
I essentially agree with you. The only reason why I don’t necessarily expect the spren victim’s report on the Recreance from Maya in RoW is that Sanderson said that the first 5-book-arc of the Stormlight Archive is about the Radiants. The Recreance and the reasons for it is the central mystery there, so it is not very likely that everything about it would be revealed before the final volume of this sub-series.
However, it since occurred to me that maybe there is another mystery beyond that – namely Ishar’s and Nale’s role in the event. I have suspected since my first reading of OB that Ishar had interferred with the dying Honor, maybe even going so far as to impersonate him, to cause the Recreance. And that Nale, having joined the Skybreakers incognito during that period, did his best to fan the flames of the inter-Order conflict to make it happen ditto. One or both of them may have been behind whatever happened to Melishi after BAM’s capture and the slaughter of most of the ex-Radiants in the wake of their oathbreaking (so that they couldn’t get second thoughts). So, this may be the final revelation about the Recreance for book 5, and in this case we well may get something from Maya about the deadeyes opinion on it and their possible complicity.
Concerning the deadeyes all returning – IMHO, it would take centuries of effort and even then the 5th-Ideal deadeyes are probably out of luck, except for Oathbringer. But spren don’t experience time in the same way – for them the important thing would be the existence of hope, where there was none before. And, of course, Radiant squires of respective Orders would be in a better position to try to revive the compatible deadeyes, so it would be in the interest of the spren for Radiants to continue to exist on Roshar.
Carl @191:
I agree with you on armor, though I assume that there is some technical difficulty in doing this that only the Radiants/Fused can overcome. So, it will make it’s appearance.
The Fused have at least 4 shardblades: Graves’, Moash’s, Eshonai’s and Ehlokar’s and 3 shardplates that we know of. But Nale seemed to have some squirreled away too, and their other allies may have a few more pieces. I think that we’ll learn that they have found a big cache with hundreds of shards soon, though.
Birgit @192:
Shallan had a soulcast aluminum chain, so yes, it is possible.
Gepeto:
We are not going to agree on this, but let me explain my position:
Adolin doesn’t need to know what is possible to make progress with Maya. All that is required is for him to consistently behave according to the Edgedancer Ideals. Which includes, but isn’t limited to communicating with her as much as he can, now that he knows that she is somewhat aware. Dalinar routinely creating perpenidcularities while in Adolin’s vicinity would have made it easier – ditto the option to go talk to her in Shadesmar via the Oathgate. It is also no longer true that everybody thinks that revival of “dead” spren is impossible – Navani specifically thought about the flexibility of the term “death” for spren in an earlier chapter. She or whoever goes to interview spren would also see with their own eyes that Maya is different from other deadeyes. Forget the 7 seconds – nobody has to believe anything, they’d need only to look. Though, you’d think that some faith in Maya from Adolin would not be too much to ask. Perception is powerful in the cosmere.
Adolin’s daddy problems are irrelevant to his progress with Maya, except in the cases where they’d prevent him from remembering the forgotten and listening to the ignored. Unbinding her would betray their nascent bond.
Regarding the honorspren – we don’t know that they condemn the use of deadeyes as strongly as Syl used to. It is increasingly clear that she is far from typical. But even if they do, an offer to unbind the deadblades would hardly convince them to risk their own lives in this manner. After all, bound or not, the deadeyes are dead, and most spren understandably don’t want to end up like that. Maya’s recovery, even partial, would (ideally) reassure them that even if their knight betrays and kills them, there is still a hope of getting restored, as long as there are Radiants on Roshar. Mass revival in a timely manner wouldn’t be on the table, but then, the spren have all the time in the world. The main thing is that being a deadeye would no longer be irrevocable. And if Maya revives enough to drop the bomb that the deadeyes agreed to the Recreance to save Roshar from the perceived danger of surge-binding and weren’t betrayed at all – well, it will turn the tables, and not just on the honorspren.
Finally, I strongly suspect that the kingship of Urithiru would begin and end with Dalinar, who is going to either Ascend or die at the end of book 5, IMHO. Hereditary monarchy is no fit government system for the Radiants – it would destroy their position as a neutral international organization. What we see now is an awkward period when the knights are too few and too inexperienced and Dalinar being Dalinar just started to rule everybody, helped by the fact that most of the current population of Urithiru are Alethi. He is not a fool, though, and knows that only another Bondsmith could be his heir. So, the person to talk to for this to happen would be the Stormfather and/or the Nightwatcher.
Regarding the word “envoy” – googling confirmed my impression that it means a single person, rather than a group. And the Amazon blurb must be coy about their identity for a reason…
@199 Artemis: thank you for finding that. It makes Kaladin a little harder for me to relate to (as the periods of depression I have experienced in my life has been specific, short term, and grief-induced) – but I’m really engaged with his story and looking forward to seeing how it unfolds. I hope he can someday find some balance and peace along his road.
@205 Gaz. I generally agree Dalinar’s progression might involve him choosing a good successor, but between now and then, he is likely going to want an heir and currently, he is highly likely to want to pick his son because hereditary is what he believes in. Of course, that does mean this will be the endgame, just the game that will justify why Dalinar sends Adolin to Shadesmar.
I don’t think this will be a major focus either, more like a minor one, but a focus that will make things move.
@206 Isilel. I agree Adolin does not need to know what is possible to make progress, but he will need to eventually acknowledge what is happening. My position also is there hasn’t been sufficient progress to convince anyone, including Adolin, reviving Maya is a possibility. What has happened in Oathbringer is not enough to convince other people the impossible is now possible, including the Honorsprens at Lasting Integrity which is why I do not think Maya is the envoy nor is the reason why Adolin is sent to Shadesmar.
More will need to happen and Maya will need to show more definite signs of reawakening before anyone starts believing it is actually happening, including Adolin which does not mean he will not progress nonetheless. It merely means whatever progress he has made (I expect none since OB) will not be enough for the Shadesmar arc.
We also do not know what reviving Maya would entail. Sanderson already told us saying the oaths would not be sufficient. Moreover, saying oaths require a purpose. Hence, before Adolin says oaths he would need to believe he can revive Maya which he won’t until he has more definite signs this can happen. This is why I think he is stuck with Maya and made no progress.
I also think there is a world between acknowledging death is different for sprens to believing the dead-eyes state can be altered. We also have a WoB stating all in-world characters believe it impossible, so whatever Navani meant, she did not mean reviving dead sprens. I do not see what looking at Maya would prove: as far as we know she looks like a regular dead-eye. The only visible manifestation of life she had was when she saved Adolin. There were no witnesses and no one will be able to tell if the behavior was out of the normal. How do we know other dead-eyes wouldn’t be compelled to protect their bearers if their bearers got wounded in Shadesmar? How do we know this is a definite sign of revival? We don’t. This is exactly how in-world characters will think so I doubt looking at Maya will change anyone’s perspective. In fact, I think no one perspective will change until Maya starts granting Radiant powers to Adolin even if weaker or sporadic and that’s unlike to happen until more development happens to make Adolin believe in… the impossible.
Oh, I have faith in Adolin and Maya. I just do not think the revival is happening right away nor do I think Adolin made much progress since OB nor do I think other characters think of him as a proto-knight nor do I think anyone believes this is actually happening including Adolin. I do not think anyone currently believes dead-eyes can be revived including Adolin. I think more will need to happen and we are not just there yet.
Adolin’s daddy problems are crucial to his progression because to endorse the path of an Edgedancer, he would need to start accepting he can be a good person even if he isn’t who daddy wanted him to be. This is at the core of his progression even if not a major focus.
I believe Adolin will need to unbind Maya before he revives her. In fact, I believe this might be the only way. As long as he has this artificial bound to Maya, he is likely to believe whatever is happening is a product of this bond. However, once he unbinds Maya and she keeps manifesting herself, then this will be definite proof more is happening. It may not be enough proof for others, but it might be for Adolin. Hence, the key might be Adolin doing just this.
Freeing the dead-eyes from their bonds would not change the situation, it will not bring them back nor will it prevent further breaking of the oaths, but it is a gesture of goodwill. It would allow them to go rest in peace. Think of it as allowing the dead bodies of assassinated loved ones to be finally allowed to get properly buried. It changes nothing over the fact they are dead, but the whole family breath easier after it is done. I would think allowing the dead-eyes to stop being misused in the physical realm would soothe the relationship and would show goodwill from the humans. The sprens would know their siblings will get to rest, like a final burial. It is symbolic, but after betrayal, returning the dead bodies would be seen in a favorable eye.
Now going back to Maya, even if she spontaneously gets revives by the time they leave for Lasting Integrity, it is poor salvation as the sprens would still not have the assurance their death would not be permanent. It would not repair the damage done by the knowledge bodies are being swung around on the other side.
I am sure Maya will have interesting stuff to tell us, but I doubt she is telling us in RoW.
Hereditary monarchy does not fit Urithiru, this is true, but this is what Dalinar currently believes in. He will not change his mind until he realizes it is the wrong fit. He is not there yet, so between now and the time he ascends and realizes hereditary is not a good idea, there is the time where he might want to push Adolin into this role. It will be a mistake, but I don’t see Dalinar not making it before he realizes it isn’t a good idea. Much like with Kaladin and Rlain.
I do not believe Urithiru’s King absolutely needs to be a Bondsmith. What if there is no other Bondsmith? What if it takes years before another one gets picked? Who rules? Kingdoms do not like a vacuum. Dalinar will want to avoid this: his speech to Gavilar indicate he understands this.
The blurb could be misleading. Looking at the definition, it does seem like the envoy is a person meant to talk for a faction and not a group of people like I assumed. In this case, it will likely be a Windrunner. Who else to speak to Honorsprens? This person may not turn out to be important at all. Still what is odd is an envoy seems to be someone sent from one government to the next. Under this definition, I would expect Adolin to be the envoy, but maybe it is a rule from another country within the coalition. I just disagree with the envoy is Maya since I do not believe there is anything definite happening with her that would justify her being the envoy.
Maybe is “…you will protect the ones you CAN”. Kaladin needed to make a decision, abandon Adolin to die and go try to rescue Dalinar or try to do something for Adolin and leave Dalinar to his doom. Adolin knew he was a dead man and that’s why he asked to leave him and go forward. Kaladin knew too, but he couldn’t leave him, he needed to protect everyone, but he just was unable to save both by himself, and he couldn’t make the decision to save only one. Then the perpendicularity opened and he didn’t have to choose, leaving the hard 4th ideal for some other day.
I like a lot the idea of Kaladin making his 4th oath in a calm place after a lot of thinking, personal introspection and acceptance, and not only because he has to save the day punching a lot of fused.
@Gepeto:
Also, I think it would be very unpleasant for Adolin to have to see deadeye-Maya. He likes her, seeing her as a tortured near-corpse has to be painful for him.
Heyyyy … why isn’t deadeye-Maya in the cover painting? She follows Adolin around Shadesmar obsessively in Oathbringer. Has he already broken their bond by that point, as you suggest he will?
#201:
In English, “an envoy” is a single person.
Maybe it’s Venli! She’s in Envoyform!
Well, now I feel stupid for not seeing that before.
@199, Artemis:
As far as seeking help, Zahel springs to mind. He’s an older, wiser man that Kaladin respects and doesn’t already have a fraught relationship with (as opposed to Lirin). Zahel himself has relevant emotional problems (SAD, which Kaladin shares) that might give him insight.
@200, goddessimho:
@Gepeto is writing about what Dalinar’s plan would likely be, not what you as an outside-the-book, non-Alethi might think.
You added “Regent” there. It isn’t in the books. She’s Queen, period. And the heir, as demonstrated by Jasnah herself, is whoever the current ruling family says, if they have enough power to make it stick. Don’t try to impose English succession law on the Mongol-inspired Alethi, please. The Kholins actually have a modified Mongol-style Kurultai there at the end of Oathbringer.
@209 Nina. I think the 4th oath is something along the lines of letting people make their own decisions and to stop wanting to decide for everyone. Adolin knew he was doomed and he did not want Kaladin/Shallan to die trying to drag him along. Kaladin wouldn’t let him make this choice. Kaladin can’t let the Windrunners fight because they could get killed. He refuses to train them because he does not want them to fight afterward. He needs to let the Windrunners decide for themselves instead of constantly asking them to behave in ways to avoid him being sad. All his leadership is organized in ways to avoid confrontation because confrontation could mean death.
I thus think it is broader than to save the ones he can. Saving the one he can wouldn’t force him to stop the purely defensive tactics he has been using to avoid casualties. It wouldn’t solve the problem he currently has. It needs to be more. He needs to… stop wanting to protect people. The opposite of the other two oaths.
@210 Carl. Yep. Why wasn’t Maya on the cover? If she compulsively follows Adolin and stays inches away from him, why isn’t she there? It could be she is hovering right outside the image as Pattern too is absent, but it could also mean something happened to drive her away from Adolin. I mean, temporarily, of course.
Still, I am reluctant to draw too many conclusions from the cover. It may not mean anything specific.
I, however, agree Adolin was uncomfortable at seeing Maya’s state in Shadesmar. He prefers to think of her as a mystical semi-alive Blade than as a walking blind corpse. So while it is not impossible Adolin has temporarily gone back to Shadesmar, my impressions are those short missions have been for scientific purposes and he wouldn’t have been invited. Nor would he have insisted to be there. Clues are Adolin spent the last year trying to settle the Shattered Plains, so presumably far from Dalinar/Navani.
Hence I see no reason why Adolin would have step into Shadesmar with Navani or asked to go or even been near Dalinar’s perpendicularity. We have to remember he is very uncomfortable over those things. He makes him feel unworthy and whenever Adolin isn’t feeling right, his go-to reaction is to find something else he can do, far-away from the thing that makes him feel uncomfortable. It is more likely Adolin has stayed as far away from those phenomenons as he possibly could.
About the envoy: Yeah. Isilel pointed out it meant only one person. So my assumptions appear to have been incorrect. I, however, do not think it is Venli because Venli’s role is in the first group and the Shadesmar adventure follows the second group. It could be Rlain though… I don’t know why, but Kaladin wants him to become a Windrunner, maybe there is a link there. All I know is it has to be a non-viewpoint character or one with only very sporadic ones. If Yunfah decides to bond Rlain, then he might be hope for change and become the envoy.
On Succession: Yes. I am trying to state things as Dalinar would view them. Dalinar strongly believes in hereditary monarchy. Sanderson states it is one of his flaws. Dalinar views Adolin as his heir, his successor, the one he raised to be a leader. He does not view Renarin under those lenses so even if we, the readers, believe Renarin could grow into the role, Dalinar is certainly not thinking along those lines. Also even if we, the readers, a king is impractical thus rendering succession irrelevant, Dalinar would not currently agree.
In other words, Dalinar is most likely trying to build another dynasty and a dynasty implies his sons will succeed him. The one problem he currently has is his chosen heir refuses to repent for his crime (thus, to Dalinar’s eyes, refuses to make the next step) and is not becoming a Radiant. From Dalinar’s perspective, I can see him wanting to push events in this direction. He is an authoritative man who rarely takes other people’s opinion into consideration, he has spent years ordering Adolin around and getting a prompt response, he is not simply going to shed all of this away because Adolin said no once. Dalinar will still expect Adolin to fall in line as he always ended up doing even when he disagreed.
We have to think in terms of what the characters know at the time we are reading the story.
On Jasnah: I think it is obvious she is Queen and Gavinor is her Heir. I doubt anyone expects her to still marry and have children now she has reached her mid-thirties.
On Zahel: I wouldn’t be against Zahel providing insights to Kaladin. I, however, think, since Kaladin is slowly becoming an inactive character, he has to spend time away from the focus.
205. Gazeboist & several others
Regarding Bondsmiths and their Ideals
I have a theory that each Bondsmith says different Ideals. Stormfather’s Bondsmith may be about unity, but the Nightwatcher’s and the Sibling’s, I believe, are about the things pertaining to these spren.
Since I am a believer in “Navani will bond the Sibling” theory, I’ve been paying attention to her inner mantras. I believe that something along the lines of “I will bring order out of chaos” will be her Second Ideal.
This all leads towards my earlier speculation that the triumvirate system in Iri is a remnant on the Knights Radiant hierarchy. Thus the Stormfather Bondsmith area of influence should be foreign policy, the Sibling – domestic policy and inner workings in Ueithiru and the Nightwatcher… perhaps agriculture and commerce?
@210 Carl
I absolutely love it! Of course it is going to be Venli! You’re right. I hope she and Shallan can become friends, they both lack female companionship.
Re: Kaladin, depression, cure
Talking about a magical cure for Kaladin perhaps is the wrong way to phrase it.
As many have said, depression isn’t exactly curable. Rather, the key is to find some way of coping with the depression, or managing it. Finding that balance. A person with depression could find that balance through counseling and learning how to approach and cope with whatever is causing the depression. My daughter follows this path. Others, like those with a chemical imbalance, find that balance through medication. Often it takes a while for the right medication to be found. Sometimes a medication works for a while, but then becomes less effective. An increased dosage is needed, or a different medication entirely. I’m not an expert on this, so please don’t hold my limitations against me if I’m not 100% accurate here.
I’m not going to go back and find them, but we see references that seem to suggest that each time Kaladin runs out of Stormlight, or it is removed from him, it seems harder and harder for him to cope. He is never without it anymore. And even now, a year after OB, Stormlight isn’t enough to keep him out of this malaise.
The different tiers, tied to the different ideals, are like the medications. Eventually, Stormlight loses its effectiveness and an alteration needs to be made. It still helps, but not as much. Kaladin, to progress in his battle with his depression needs to speak that 4th ideal. That is like an increased dosage, or finding that new medication, that will help him get back to a better balance.
This isn’t a magical cure. It is working through the progression that a person with depression in real life also goes through until, hopefully, a more permanent balance can be found. This isn’t an “easy cure” as some have suggested. How can we look at Kaladin’s stuggles through the first 3 books and this beginning of the 4th, and suggest anything is coming easily to him?
By the time he reaches the 5th ideal, Kaladin will have found a balance that allows him to cope with his depression. It will not go away. He will still have good days and bad days. But his bad days won’t be the lows he finds himself in now.
That’s my take on it. Hope I didn’t screw up the explanation too much.
@211, Gepeto:
Oh, I think we completely agree here, depending on what you mean by “the focus.” The story will certainly still center on Kaladin some of the time, but he can’t be the focus of the “fighting a war against the Odium forces” plot. His own personal arc plot could still be a major part of the story, and I’d expect him to rejoin the team for the Sanderson Avalanche at the end, in some way (not necessarily by rejoining the combat arms).
Sanderson has acknowledged that one of the themes of the Stormlight Archive is symmetry. Notice that Kaladin is now mirroring Taln, the ultimate soldier no longer able to fight due to mental illness.
@214 Carl. By focus, Carl, I meant one out of two chapters cannot keep on focusing on Kaladin. I would think he needs perhaps two additional chapters, in part 1, to settle his mind on what he wants to do now (those who read the other preview chapters already know), but the rest of part 1 shouldn’t be so heavily Kaladin-focused. Well, I hope it isn’t. I mean out of 10 chapters, so far, about 8 were focused on Kaladin: that’s a lot of focus and given how it has ended, I would think Kaladin would no longer be the prominent focus. At least, not until he is ready to swear his fourth ideal or have a denouement.
All in all, a protagonist needs to remain active and musing over his own personal problems without contributing to advance the narrative does qualify as inactive. Hence, I would expect Kaladin to spend some time in the background from now until he gets a resolution.
Sanderson said the Heralds were a different case: they are not mentally ill, they are suffering from having lived a very long time. I dunno how much symmetry he wanted to include between Kaladin and Taln, I am only observing he is walking on a the thin-line, with Kaladin’s character, between too much and enough.
I think it’s pertinent to note (for many users here) that not ALL KR Orders have squires.
It’s canon that Windrunners and Lightweavers do, but not all the Orders do.
So while it may make sense for Rlain to become a Truthwatcher, there’s no need for him to squire to Renarin to do so.
@216 Gecko good point. We also know that Skybreakers have squires, and we have WoB that Bondsmiths had squires as well. For some reason I thought Truthwatchers also had squires by WoB, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
Why is our wall-climbing lizard talking to himself? (216 and 217)
@218 Carl. Could we have tow Geckos commenting? Maybe they both share a passion for climbing lizards… One could be Gecko1 and the other Gecko2?
@104. I agree. No magic solution for me, I don’t think having something magical for him would be good either. I’m fact, I don’t think he’d accept it. What he needs is nourishment and genuine care- cultivation. That’s why I think they should meet.